Cabelas: Voluntary back door gun registration?

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azredhawk44

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I went to Cabela's today... the store in Glendale, AZ. I went to get some titegroup for my reloading bench, but I saw a Marlin 795 sitting in the rack and I've been wanting a new one for awhile to replace my aging, long in the tooth and abused Marlin autoloader.

I had cash in my pocket, I was ready to buy: I whipped out my CCW permit and driver's license, told the clerk I'd take it, and he produced a 4473.

He told me to write my phone number across the top of it. There's no field to do so. ATF is very picky about forms in recent years... those of you not familiar, just look up Red's Trading Post in Idaho as an example.

Anyways, I started writing and then a thought hit me: WHY am I writing this down?

I asked the clerk, and he told me:

Cabelas voluntarily faxes all of their 4473 forms to the FBI.

I told the clerk that I would not be purchasing the gun, I put my money away and my license/permit. I reached out for the 4473 that had my phone number on the top, intending to take it with me. Clerk told me I couldn't have it "because it was a government form." Whatever. I told him I want my phone number off the form, so he tore off the corner that had it and I took that with me.

I took my 2 pounds of powder to the register and paid for it. Came home, did some research.

Here's my thinking: Unless deliberately empowered to do something, Government is prohibited from acting. Since no gun registration is in place and the FBI is certainly not tasked with either tracing firearms or collecting firearms data, it is a violation of their mission to be accepting this information.

Congress specifically empowered the Attorney General (as one of the nation's top federal law enforcement officers and overseer of the FBI and ATF) to obtain access to 4473's only by the means described in USC Title 18, Section 923(g)(1)(A) through (g)(1)(D). None of those methods allow for a federal agency to accept en masse the entire contents of an active FFL's 4473 library.

I've called the store director, Tom Forsyth (623-872-6700), and left a message. I told him I wanted to know:
1. if what this clerk told me was true;
2. the fax number used to send these forms;
3. the location of the FBI office that accepts these forms;
4. the name of the special agent in charge of that division of the FBI.

It is my intention to contact my AZ State Senator and look into adding to Arizona ARS statutes, to prohibit FFL dealers from voluntarily creating a federal agency gun registry.

While it's completely possible that this clerk was a total bone-head and didn't know what he was talking about... I find it very odd that Cabelas wants my phone number in the upper left corner of 4473 forms.

Does anyone else know of FFL's who want this extra info?

Does anyone else know of active FFL's who are sending their 4473's off-site to the ATF or FBI?

Can anyone else confirm this experience at a Cabelas or other large chain FFL?

It is my intent to contact the SAIC of this FBI branch and initiate an FOIA request detailing the earliest dates of 4473 copies, the storage media type on which they are archived (paper or electronic), if they have been integrated into any searchable system, and an approximate count of 4473's currently populating these archives, grouped by FFL license number.
 
Never heard of this

Haven't experienced this procedure anywhere else. Never purchased a firearm from Cabelas, and never will, as I already boycott Cabelas due to their lousy customer service. Now I have another reason. Think about buying your powder elsewhere next time, and that will prevent you from funding their Orwellian mission. Thanks for the info.
 
You might want to wait to verify that this clerk was speaking the truth before calling out the cavalry. It seems pretty unlikely to me.

Let us know what the store manager has to say.
 
I don't know whether he spoke the truth or not. I do know that I have been in Cabela's on many occasions in which it was shear pandemonium. TONS of people buying guns, thus TONS of forms being filled out (easy to miss a mistake). It might be possible that they ask for a phone number just in case they later find a mistake on the form (internal audit, not ATF).
 
Might not be as nefarious as you imagine. We did the same thing when I worked sporting goods at Wal-Mart. The purpose was to be able to contact the customer if an error was discovered when management reviewed the forms and the customer had to be contacted to make the corrections.
 
The forms are the property of the dealer. If they voluntarily give up the forms to the government, neither they or the government are violating the laws created by Congress prohibiting national registration.

All that being said, I doubt they are actually sending those forms to the FBI.
 
When I worked for Dick's, we always got the customer's phone number. This was in case we needed to contact the customer down the road. Most often, it was because of an error on the form that needed to be corrected. But there were also other circumstances, such as the big recall on Remington 710s. We had to go through the list of 710s we'd sold and compare the SNs to those involved in the recall, and attempt to contact the buyer.

I inadvertantly got one guy in trouble with his wife when I called for him. He wasn't there, so I let her know there was a recall on the rifle her husband had bought about a month prior. Yeah, she didn't know about that. Oops.
 
I haven't bought a gun at Cabela's in about a week and a half. At that time, though, they didn't do that.
 
I naturally write my phone number accross the top of the 4473 forms; after being instructed to do it by salesmen at both a local pawnshop and Dick's Sporting Goods store. Their reasoning was that it would make it easier to get in touch with me if they needed to clarify anything.
 
I told the clerk that I would not be purchasing the gun, I put my money away and my license/permit. I reached out for the 4473 that had my phone number on the top, intending to take it with me. Clerk told me I couldn't have it "because it was a government form." Whatever. I told him I want my phone number off the form, so he tore off the corner that had it and I took that with me.

LOL, it isn't like the government can't find your phone number.
 
Double Naught Spy said:
LOL, it isn't like the government can't find your phone number.

Seriously... when you're giving out your full name, address, date and place of birth, and possibly SSN... the phone number seems like a pretty minor detail.
 
I don't think that giving the phone number is the issue - the issue is whether Cabela's is actually faxing a copy of each 4473 to the F Troop.

I kinda doubt it, but I'm willing to wait for the OP to verify this before forming a firm opinion.
 
when I worked at Cabela's we put the phone # on the 4473 as contact information in case there was any problems that might show up. for at least that 2 year period I don't remember it ever being used. Cabela's doesn't fax the 4473 to the atf. all of the 4473 information is entered into their computer version of the log book which is approved by the atf.
 
The last time I bought a gun at Cabela's, they used a separate form to collect the personal contact information that could then be used to contact me if there were questions.

Faxing a 4473 to the FBI? Dumb clerk, dumb clerk, dumb clerk...:rolleyes:
 
Why is it that we automatically assume that the clerk at a gun counter of a major chain store is telling the gospel truth about what the corporation does or why it does it when we also know this particular breed of creature is often a source of profound disinformation and outright drivel in other areas of their job? I mean, really. You trust Mr. "A .45 will knock a man off his feet" to know exactly what the company does with their federal 4473s, after he has told you that "it's a government form, you can't take it". :scrutiny:

Seriously? they may very well do just what the clerk says, or worse- but just because the clerk says it is not a reason to believe it. Ask to talk to a manager, or someone at corporate. Some clerks are outstanding. Some clerks are idiots.

Mike
 
Go for it, if it indeed is happening.

If your goal is to mandate compliance with the federal law, great, but if you believe there aren't records of gun sales on file "everywhere" you're mistaken. 4473's are (depending on your state) often filed with the city & state police.
 
steveno: "Cabela's doesn't fax the 4473 to the atf. all of the 4473 information is entered into their computer version of the log book which is approved by the atf."

That's actually worse. No Cabela's for me.
 
the computer version of the log book is just that. the atf cannot log into it from their office to check on guns. when you consider how many stores Cabela's has and the number of guns they sell keeping up a "paper" log book would be almost impossible. the atf will allow the use of "computer" log books if the software program is approved by them. I don't believe that this prevents an ffl from putting it in excel or access. however when the atf makes an inspection they will check the "paper" log book unless you are using the approved software.
 
Why would the clerk say that unless he believed it?
I wear my tinfoil hat a little tight sometimes but this would upset me enough that I would at least investigate and complain.
 
I am amazed that the number would be required at all. The notion that they may need to call you in case of an error. These bloody things are not THAT difficult; having filled out more than a few. Nonetheless, you are right to want to speak to the manager first.
 
Is this something new? I bought, sold and traded guns at that very store from 2006 (its opening) to 2008. I was neither asked for a phone number nor told they were faxing copies off to the BATmen.

I think this is more a case of a new salesperson needing some more training. They have had misunderstandings before - when the store first opened it had a sign worded in such a way that it would have prohibited CCW. This was later changed.
 
when I worked at Cabela's we put the phone # on the 4473 as contact information in case there was any problems that might show up.

I got put "on hold" the other day. Turns out, I was approved by NICS within an hour, but already left the store.

That's why they got my phone number (an out-of-town cell phone, BTW).

Lately, this has been happening a lot. I've seen a number of "holds" put on background checks, on people who are as clean as I am. I also have a very rare name, and AFAIK I'm the only one of me in the United States.

My guess: the flood of gun sales has overwhelmed the NICS systems, but they don't want to admit having any IT or other problems.
 
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