how important is a sixth shot?

5 is not enough until you need 6. 6 is not enough until you need 7. 7 is not enough until you need 8.

There's no end to it.

I carry a 5 shot J frame and am lousy at reloading under stress. For that reason I carry another J on the off side (the New York reoad). (I draw pretty good and shoot OK with the left if it comes to having to shoot left handed. That something we should practice a little bit no matter what anyway.) Obviously I'd switch to the right hand for firing if I had time.

Anyway, that gives me ten total and puts me into the range of most autos. Works for me.

Then again, there are times when I'll just have my little LCP auto in my pocket with 6 shots.

If you really have an enviornment where action is likely - I'd go with a high capacity auto. But then again - I don't trust autos so I'd still have to carry the spare J frame.

5 and 5 in times of more liklihood for action works for me. Oner J frame only with .357's works in coat pockets. Single little minimal .380 pocket gun works other times.

The odds are against me getting into a gun fight in my life. The odds are slimmer still of needing more than 5 rounds. I know that, really. But then, again, most of us kinda "get into" this concealed carry and want to do it right just because it could be so crucial if it ever came down.

The options are endless, I suppose. You weigh the odds against real life convenience, I suppose - just like in all things concealed carry wise.

My snub has six shots. I like that sixth shot, but I would not feel undergunned without it either. Cooper (who got the world started on bottom-feeders to begin with) never seemed to think just a whole lot of the "wondernine." *shrugs*

I count on my snub being enough to do the job. If I had a 5-shot J-frame I would probably count on that being enough too.

That said, I am of the practice of keeping a folding stock shotgun in a bag with me at all times when I go into really bad parts of town (which isn't often now since I left that particular job).

You only need a sixth shot if there is still a threat after five. Normally the threat is gone after 1 or 2 shots, but if not???

Normally the threat is gone after 1 or 2 shots...

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And you base this on what, exactly?

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How important would that sixth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that seventh shot be in a sixhooter?
How important would that eighth shot be in a sevenhooter?
How important would that ninth shot be in an eighthooter?

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How important would that sixth shot be in a sixshooter?
How important would that fifth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that fourth shot be in a fourshooter?
How important would that third shot be in a threeshooter?




Mike

If you really have an enviornment where action is likely

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If you're not a LEO, and you have an environment where action is likely, the best thing to do is stay out of it.

Things happen all the time, I'm not saying there is no need for carrying. I carry. But common sense, and avoidance of a bad situation will save your @$$ a lot more than a sixth (or even a sixteenth) shot.

I carry a 5 shot J-frame, and never felt under gunned. But I do watch where I go, and when I go there. I live outside of, and work in, Atlanta. There are quite a few areas of the city that I drive AROUND, especially at night. And I usually have another gun of some type in the truck with me, within easy reach.

Wyman

The reality is, there will always be more evil in the world, than one can load up in a firearm at one time.

Hence the reason J.Q.Public is strongly urged to not go where trouble is, leave if trouble shows up, and have mindset and skillsets to deal with trouble whether it be using a tool like shoes to run, or using a cane, or using a firearm, or hitting the gas pedal, or...etc.

The faster folks realize they cannot buy physical objects to magically keep evil away, and magically deal with evil if evil shows up, the better off they will be.


It does not matter how many rounds a firearm holds, one has to know how to keep the gun fed. - Clint Smith.

How important would that sixth shot be in a fiveshooter?
How important would that seventh shot be in a sixhooter?
How important would that eighth shot be in a sevenhooter?
How important would that ninth shot be in an eighthooter?

Enough with revolvers.

How important would that 31st shot be in a thirty round mag?

Ill let you guys hash the rest of this out.

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There's always a solution:

Only 2-3 shots per encounter? (a stat that is WRONG, btw, and even if it wasn't, it's an AVERAGE, not a maximum.) As my Dad always said "Averages are always wrong."

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That stat is absolutely correct, and comes from the FBI. Further more, MOST confrontations where you might pull a gun do not end in shooting the gun even once. (that's another proven statistic) And your Dad is wrong. You're one of those pray and spray types that needs 17 9mms, aren't you? :banghead:

Who knows?

Someday you may need just one more shot...but that could be the case with any weapon. Making sure you can hit what you're aiming at seems to make more sense than contemplating the capacity of your weapon. I reckon...

That stat is absolutely correct, and comes from the FBI.

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Yeah, I know. It's the "shots fired" stat. It's wrong because they ALSO include: Accidental discharges, warning shots, putting down animals, suicides, etc where single shots are fired. This skews the "shots fired" stat downward, making you ASSume 2-3 shots is all anyone will need.

Further more, MOST confrontations where you might pull a gun do not end in shooting the gun even once.

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Except that the "shots fired" stat does NOT include a single "shots NOT fired" incident. It IS the "shots fired" stat, after all.

Shall we presume, based on your citing this fact, that you carry an EMPTY gun?

(that's another proven statistic)

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But you didn't cite it and I didn't challenge it. I was merely pointing out that the 2-3 shots fired stat is WRONG.

And your Dad is wrong.

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Maybe you need to look up the word, "average." It is a single value that represents the general significance of a set of unequal values

Some encounters require less rounds, some require MORE, some maybe not even one. Maybe your encounter will land on the "less" or "none" side of things, but it just as easily may not. IF you carry a gun and IF you load it, do you only load 3 rounds? According to your citations, that's all you need, ...............right ?.......

You're one of those pray and spray types that needs 17 9mms, aren't you?

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I can see where you get in trouble with your wild @$$ ASSumptions. You're not even close. But I do carry more than 5 rds.

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If you honestly think you're going to get in a gun fight in your daily life and think you need more than a handfull of rounds, if any, I would consider you a delusional whack job. If you're a cop, it's a different story.

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.

How important do you think a sixth shot is in a self denfense situation?

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It's damned important, if you miss with the first five shots. So, get a speedloader and practice with it. I have four speedloaders for my SP101; and, I carry them all.

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale.

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Here you go, BigBlock: http://dwb.adn.com/news/alaska/story/7795684p-7709118c.html

Mike

It depends on the situation and how proficient you are with your handgun.

If you are up against multiple attackers, such as a home invasion, then the extra rounds could mean the difference between life and death.

If you are one on one at some distance and your attacker has cover you may need the extra rounds.

It's up to you to decide what to carry. Wether you go with a 5 shot, 6 shot or even a high capacity semi auto you should practice reloads as if you life depended on it because some day it might.

I would think 5 well placed shots would win out over 6 wild ones any day.

But I have a question - assuming a revolver in a confrontation: You have fired 4 rounds, and there is a momentary lull - perhaps just enough time to reload with a speedloader ----- do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or sit tight just in case.....?

Does anyone have any data that might suggest how often police needed to reload in a defensive situation back in the day when police only used revolvers?? That might tell you how often statistically 5 or 6 is enough.

BTW - there are plenty of true stories about civilians and police emptying a semi auto and not hitting a thing (or maybe once). My favorite was a police officer chasing an undercover officer down a florida beach at night. the police officer emptied his gun and the undercover officer almost emptied his gun before he realized he was shooting at PD. No hits.

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.

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I actually personally know of one such instance, where the good guy went through one and a half magazines of his XD-9. In total, though, I think he only scored four hits on the goblin, and the first magazine was actually only half emptied because the gun jammed mid-fight and he assumed the mag was already empty and ejected it. The fourth hit was the one that stopped the fight. It entered the pelvic girdle and hit a bone or an artery or something else fairly critical and the goblin finally went down.

My point here is that this guy was a good example of "pray and spray." Five rounds of .38 Special in the heart/lungs/CNS would have more than done the job. If you practice often and know your gun, I think five shots is going to be enough for any situation that can actually be handled with a handgun.

No one, especially me, is advocating a "spray and pray" approach.

Bigblock's arrogance aside, there are many examples where 5 or even 6 shots simply were not enough.

Just this morning I received a DTI Quip from renowned firearms instructor, John Farnam. One of his students was the victim of a home invasion. The student reacted instantly with his Glock 38, firing SEVEN shots (attaining SEVEN hits) into the first badguy who stumbled backward and fell, dead. Would six hits have been enough? Five ? Two of those seven hits were declared "fatal." But were they the first two, or last two shots fired? Would one of those hits have stopped him just as fast without the second fatal hit? That's unknown. What IS known is, with the two fatal hits, he DID stop immediately.

As a side note, the badguys were wearing heavy winter clothing which hampered the 230 grain JHP's from opening up. A .38 JHP would have the same trouble, so maybe that 6th shot IS important, regardless of Bigblock's naive, yet pompous, assessment of such things.

If the badguy dies or not is irrelevant. What matters FIRST is, did he stop doing the act that you shot him for?

I was indirectly involved with a guy hopped up on drugs that ended the day with 19 holes of 9mm and 357 and 2 holes from 12 gauge slugs that were put into him over the course of 2 minutes.

Personally, I always err on the side of more ammo. If carrying a 17rd 9mm makes me a "spray n pray" advocate, so be it.

I prefer to think of it as having a little extra insurance when the zombie invasion begins.

It's funny........the people that carry 5 shot revolvers think they are immune to the "spray and pray" mentality, whilst the hicap crowd is powerless to resist the urge to "spray and pray."

Nevermind that whole practice/mindset thing !

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6ht shot, 7th shot, 8th shot, 30th shot,......yawn.

The shot that matters most is the first shot.

Practice getting that one on target, accurate and fast.

It's funny........the people that carry 5 shot revolvers think they are immune to the "spray and pray" mentality, whilst the hicap crowd is powerless to resist the urge to "spray and pray."

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Yeah, that's pretty much the truth. Why else do you need 17 bullets? Revolver shooters have the discipline to put those shots where they need to be - if you actually NEED a high capacity gun you are not aiming.

Any "self defense" example where the person fired more than six from an auto is irrelivant, it is VERY, VERY common for people under such stress to empty the gun and keep pulling the trigger - even if the guy was dead on the first shot. (and for that reason I don't care in the slightest if there's another AWB)

Let me say this:

I've gone from carrying a Sig P220 for the last 5 years to a pre-37 S&W Airweight.

I don't feel "undergunned" by any means.

If I really felt there was a great chance I'd need a sixth shot, or a sixteenth for that matter........I'd be carrying around my RRA Entry Tactical.