how important is a sixth shot?

Lets see if I can help.
5 is better then 0
6 is better then 5
15 is better then 6
30 is better then 15 .............
Carry what you are comfortable with and able to shoot well.

Soundtrakzz,

As you can see this can tend to be a can 'o worms...

There is no definite answer to the question of "Is five enough?". All I can offer is my opinion, be it right, wrong or indifferent.

The great majority of the time (~95% or better) my carry gun is a five shot .38 Spl. Why would I carry an anemic sub-caliber? Because it's easy to carry, because I can shoot it well, because it conceals easily for me, because I prefer revolvers over semi-auto's, because I'm more familiar with my revolvers than my semi-auto's. I do not reload a snubby fast, but I don't carry a back-up either. I do not feel out-gunned or unprotected.

That said, I do have a 2.5" 6 shot .357 Magnum, and carry it sometimes. Not because I feel like I need it more on any certain day, just because I'm in the mood to carry it.

Like SigfanUSAF said, if I thought I'd need that sixth shot, I probably should have had a long gun with me.

However, take all the above with a grain of salt... my handgun of choice is a revolver, my home defense shotgun ain't tactical, I'll take my Winchester 30-30 over an AR15 any day, and I still think that a slip-joint folding knife is the best thing since sliced bread.

JLaw

Knowing that my next gun fight will be my first, I feel perfectly secure w/ the 5 in my j frame

Is the 6th shot important? Not unless you missed with the first 5. In which case you'll probably miss with #6, hopefully you filed off the front sight.

Is the 6th shot important? Not unless you missed with the first 5. In which case you'll probably miss with #6, hopefully you filed off the front sight.

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Or you're up against 3 or more guys and would prefer to have more than 1 shot for each guy.

You know, bad guys play with the odds in their favor, especially when it comes to numbers.

GTSteve, no, no, the "5 shots is enough for all situations" crowd seems to think that it'll always be ONE non-drug-crazed attacker, wearing a t-shirt who is predisposed to stopping his attack immediately with the first shot fired......

Me, I realize that 40% of the time, there will be MULTIPLE attackers, most likely at night and possibly drunk, high, crazy or any combination thereof who will not realize that they are supposed to cease their attack the instant I draw my gun.

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GTSteve, no, no, the "5 shots is enough for all situations" crowd seems to think that it'll always be ONE non-drug-crazed attacker, wearing a t-shirt who is predisposed to stopping his attack immediately with the first shot fired......

Me, I realize that 40% of the time, there will be MULTIPLE attackers, most likely at night and possibly drunk, high, crazy or any combination thereof who will not realize that they are supposed to cease their attack the instant I draw my gun.


Which is why you have to practice with the speedloaders in the dark, both hands, etc.

So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots?

FWIW my home defense gun is a S&W 686P. It holds 7 which I feel confortable with. However 5 not so much though realstically it probably is.

So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots?

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Personally, I think I would dump the two rounds in my hand, put them in my pocket as I grab the speedloader, and if I needed to, load the last 2 by hand later.

I have carried a beretta or sig with two reloads, an MP-5 with one reload and had 4 or 5 armed co workers with me and felt underguned. But we had an ideal what we was going against. Off duty my 5 shot 642 is normally all I carried and have never felt undergunned and a weapon with 6 shots wouldn't made me feel any better. It depends on your situration. Normally just displaying a weapon is all that is needed can't say how many times after a crime I began looking at what the victim did and felt even a single shot would of change things around. If you one of those people that put on a high cap weapon and two reloads to go get a gallon of milk that fine, truth is you more then likly wont need it but in the event you do and you one of those unlucky ones that attacked by several armed punks the chances are you going to lose the same as if you only had a 5 shot. What bother me is those that belives in large weapons for carry end up leaving them at home now and then because they only going to the corner store and that one punk with a pipe take them out. So it not is 6 better then 5, it's what you will have on you at all times of course it shouldn't have to be said but i will say it you still have to train with what you carry.

be safe

how important is a sixth shot?

I don't worry about it. Obviously some other folks do- a lot. I figure a five shooter in the pocket (hard to do with an SP101 IMHO, they're too heavy) is better than anything bigger left at home because it's too big/too heavy/too much trouble to carry all day every day. An airweight .38 in a pocket holster suits me, YMMV.

lpl

How convenient for you to ignore ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying.

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Show me ONE situation where that happened. ONE!

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There are many dozens. Are you too lazy to look 'em up yourself ?

You lost all credibility with me (and many others) when you posted your naive, freedom hating view on the AWB.

Carry a gun or don't. Load it or don't. I don't care!!

Alchymist wrote:
So, no one is gonna take a stab at my previous question? (The one where you have fired 4 rounds in a SD situation, and there is a very short pause, possibly enough to reload via the speed loader...do you dump the 2 remaining rounds & reload, or stick it out with 2 remaining shots?

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Being serious.

Keep in mind I have never attended a known gun school; all my lessons were private.

1. Go to Back up Gun (BUG).
Actually...I was taught to use weak hand to draw and fire, for "many" environments.

The reason being, bad guys will watch a mark, and know which hand is a person's strong hand, from them writing/signing something, like writing a check.
While one keeps "strong hand free" , if a BG is really tailing/casing you, they will watch for those things, one will do with strong hand.

The mindset being, "maybe" throwing the bad guy off his/her loop drawing and firing weak handed might allow Lady Luck to show up.
The BG may indeed target the strong side.

Many BGs work in teams, and have signals. One may think they are only dealing with one, or two BGs, instead they never see others, sending signals.
Simple things, like someone dropping a cigarette and crushing it under a right foot.
(a) you are confirmed to be taken down, (b) you are right handed as they watched you write a check.

If you were left handed, the cigarette would be crushed with the left foot.
You, or anyone else seeing this person crush out a cigarette, may never know he/she was part of the team to take you down.

Hey, it might be some gal with a baby/child, that moves that child to the other hip, to signal which is strong side.

2. Only 1 sidearm.
Again, my tasks for my environment.
I had others I worked with.

Speed strips, and they were always loaded with 4 rounds.
It did not matter if one of us had a S&W, Colt, or Ruger, nor how many rounds.
WE used Speed Strips with 4 rounds of standard pressure , 158 gr, LSWC.

Now one might be carrying a Model 19 snubby, with .357 loads, still if matters got serious, those Four, standard pressure, 158 gr, LSWC, would work in that gun.

Lessons were- keep the gun running, and do it quickly!
Get 4 in the gun and run it! Repeat!

Sure, you might hit an empty charge hole, just pull the darn trigger again!
Repetition become habit, habit becomes faith.

After you ran however many rounds your cylinder held, FOUR was burned into your brain, and human computer.
WE all had these lessons.

Again, tasks for the environment I and mine were in.

Granted we all pretty much carried the same platform ( make/ models of revolvers), still we did "work" with others, or were with others that carried guns.
Unwritten Code was - Revolvers for Defense, Semi for Offense.

C.R.Sam said the same thing.

Pay attention here, this is important.
WE blended in, and gave perceptions we wanted to give.
We did NOT want to look or act like Cops, or Military.

We carried 1911s, Full size and Commanders size, bone stock, except for gold bead front sight.
USGI/Colt 7 round mags, with dimple follower.

WE did NOT have ambis - still we did carry these "weak side".
You see, we did not trust anyone. We never knew whom was watching, or whom might blab.
i.e. having to go to a place where we had to unload and make safe a gun, like jail or prison.
We did not top off mags. We wanted to know /account for every round. It was for not us, also for whomever we had to lock up the gun under the care of.
WE never had a AD, in loading back up over the "bucket".

Now, if some BG sees, or finds out we use bone stock 1911s, meaning no Ambi, again, we "hopefully" had the element of surprise, and time for Lady Luck to show up, drawing and shooting from weak side with a 1911 with no ambi.

Criminals come in various models, and while some are dumb as hammers, some are not.
Some are extremely smart, and quite talented. Some are extremely knowledgeable about firearms, and are great shooters.

Me an mine dealt with models of criminals, many are not aware of, and being honest, many of you will never have to concern yourself with .
No offense, just you are not worth their time, as the return on what they get from you, is not worth their time.

I go w-a-y back on all this. We paid attention to when a Police Dept made changes - we did not want to have anything that might even hint of "Police".

We would work and area, and the issued guns might be Model 10 and Model 36.
So I for instance would carry a Ruger Six Series, another would Carry a Colt DS.

WE end up where Colt or Ruger where issued, we run S&W.
1911s and BHPs, we would run something else.

WE did Speed Strips, for a number of reasons, big one being, 4 rounds of .38spl standard pressure LSWC fit any make or model, no matter how many rounds, or if a dedicated .38spl or .357.

Break it down to simple.
Get 4 in the gun now and run it!

Set ups included areas where we could not carry a gun, but say a bad deal went down, and bank guard, or armored car guard was down, dead, we had loads to fit those revolvers, as .38spl was the issued gun.
Maybe the guard shot all the rounds...
Maybe I am disarmed of my gun, but over there is a dead bank guard, and if I got to the gun, or the one on a ankle, I had loads to fit that gun.

Err...you can forget how to count to 5 or 6 when matters get serious.
Just get 4 in the damn thing now and run it!

Again, tasks for environments that I and mine had private lessons, and did set ups for all sorts of situations.

-s

6 round sp101

You have unwittingly stirred up the revolver vs. auto controversy. I like both and have carried both. That being said I think if you like revolvers for whatever reason you should carry a revolver.

If you like the sp101 but your not sure about the five shot limit there is an alternative. The sp101 is also chambered in .327 federal. It’s the same frame as the three-inch sp101 but has the sixth round.

If you don’t want the 3 inch barrel Charter Arms makes a .327 six shooter in both a 2.2 and 4 inch barrel.

There are many dozens. Are you too lazy to look 'em up yourself ?

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NO, there are not. Like I said, show me ONE, I doubt you can find it.


And to answer the original question, you are far more likely to be killed by a plane falling out of the sky than that sixth shot you don't have. Do you really need to worry this much about something that has such an infinitesimally small possibility of happening? You're more likely to increase your life span if you start exercising more and eating vegetables rather than carrying six rounds.

If you ever leave the house, or even if you don't, there's always a chance you can die that day. Doesn't matter how many rounds you've got.

I found this after all of 20 seconds of searching.

From here on, YOU do your own research.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82532

I found this after all of 20 seconds of searching.

From here on, YOU do your own research.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=82532

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Where in that article does it say, and I quote "ANY actual case where having a 7th or 8th shot made all the difference between living and dying."

Doesn't say a word about that, how many bullets really did anything. Just because somebody fired twelve shots means nothing.

Again, David, you are arguing autos vs revolvers, while nobody else is.

Reminder

Folks, let us engage the argument and not each other.

*smile*

Corrections should be made in a courteous and polite manner.

If your plan B is to hit the guy with the sixth shot, you need a better plan A.

If you honestly think you're going to get in a gun fight in your daily life and think you need more than a handfull of rounds, if any, I would consider you a delusional whack job. If you're a cop, it's a different story.

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Do I think I am going to get in a gunfight? Nope. Am I a delusional whack job for carrying a 10 shot G27 + a spare mag? Don' think so. Cops are not the only people in high risk jobs. I could list 100 jobs that put people at risk equal if not exceeding LE, and being one of those people, I am not comfortable with just 5 rounds.

It's only important if the first 5 don't hit him.

I challenge you to show me one self defense shooting where 6+ shots are fired and the person lived to tell the tale. If you get into that territory, you're already in way over your head.

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Travis Deen Neal, a citizen. Houston Texas. January 21, 1994. CZ-75, three 15 round mags of ammunition, plus what was in the gun. He had the loaded magazines in his vehicle because he was headed to the range. Mr. Neal used all his ammunition. He saved his own life, as well as that of a sheriff's deputy.

Unfortunately, I cannot find an online citation for Mr. Neal's story, but it is available for your reading pleasure in Robert Waters' book The Best Defense. People who have been into guns a while will recognize Mr. Neal as the Texan who testified before Congress as an advocate for full capacity magazines. He was a very effective witness.

Doug Stanton is another example that immediately pops to mind.

Hence the reason J.Q.Public is strongly urged to not go where trouble is, leave if trouble shows up, and have mindset and skillsets to deal with trouble whether it be using a tool like shoes to run, or using a cane, or using a firearm, or hitting the gas pedal, or...etc.

The faster folks realize they cannot buy physical objects to magically keep evil away, and magically deal with evil if evil shows up, the better off they will be.

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Rather than be concerned about a sixth shot, I am more concerned about a sixth sense. sm is correct. Mindset is important. Awareness and the ability to detect trouble before it detects you is far more important. It is impossible to avoid "bad areas" as bad people leave bad areas frequently in search of prey. Being able to recognize and avoid an impending criminal encounter that will lead to an attack is far more important than how many rounds your gun holds. Developing the ability to recognize the encounter before it even happens is key. Strive to avoid the encounter, avoid the criminal interview process, as well as the attack. If you remove yourself from the victim selection process, the chances of you being attacked drop significantly.

I'm sure that some will poo poo that idea, as the pervasive line of thought is often to just carry a gun and deal with trouble when it comes. But if you can avoid the encounter all together, you never have to deal with court, attorneys, and the aftermath of a shooting. That kind of makes it worthwhile to many people.

Most people will carry what they are comfortable with based on the perceptions of their own needs. That's the same with everything, from the amount of money you carry, to the shoes you wear, to the automobile you drive, to the people you associate with. There is no use arguing the point and trying to get another person to subscribe to your way of thinking. They have different experiences and perceptions. For every statement there is an exception, as I have tried to show. Thus bullheaded arguments in either direction are quickly seen as ad hominem attacks. We try not to do that here.

At one time I liked to carry a lot of rounds in my gun. 15+1 made me comfortable. Later in life, 7+1 was fine. Often, I now feel secure with five in a snub. I still like 7+1 at times, but five is easier and I figure it should do the trick most of the time. There may be a time when I want 15+1 again, indeed a time when I want 30 in a rifle again.

What I do and think makes no difference though. If you don't feel comfortable carrying that, then it's not right for you. I do urge you to explore other options, understand the place of your weapon in your life and defense, and to develop a sixth sense rather than worry about a sixth round. An extra round will not guarantee you anything if you don't have the instincts to go along with it. It never was the arrow, it was the indian. It isn't the gun, it's the man behind it that matters.

edited to add: This subject of handgun capacity, whether revolver or semi-auto is an important one, for many reasons. Thus, I hesitate to close this thread. The last thing we, as gun owners, need is another high profile gun person making a Bill Ruger type statement about capacity requirements. Even if we sincerely believe five rounds are enough for ourselves, we need to know and understand the cases of when that may not be so for a private citizen. In time, we may again be forced to defend our right to own a gun with a capacity greater than ten rounds, five rounds, or even one round, based on some of these very same arguments. To defend our rights, it is important to know both sides of the coin.

Further, some will no doubt notice a few missing posts. Namecalling and ad hominem attacks are contrary to the rules that govern us at The High Road. Up to this point, I am giving a pass in this thread and have simply made such posts invisible to all but the staff. There will be no second chances. If you are unfamiliar with the rules you agreed to on registration here, or have forgotten them because it has been so long, there is a link to them at the top right of each page of the forum. A review is suggested. There is no need to become so emotionally invested in what another member does that it endangers your ability to post. Thanks.