It's true. Go to the official Defense Reutilization and and Marketing website:https://www.drms.dla.mil/ and click on the link to public sales and it takes you to the Government Liquidation.com website who are contracted to actually conduct the sales. It doesn't get any more official then that.
The DOD Surplus Brass Controversy - Fact v. Rumor
- Thread starter Jeff White
- Start date
- Status
It's true. Go to the official Defense Reutilization and and Marketing website:https://www.drms.dla.mil/ and click on the link to public sales and it takes you to the Government Liquidation.com website who are contracted to actually conduct the sales. It doesn't get any more official then that.
Waitone...
Yes...it was me on Tom's show. I interviewed Larry Haynie, got his story, and e-mailed Tom--who checked it out, and decided to have both of us on the show. Larry Haynie is a businessman. I do not think he would frivolously or maliciously lie about this. He will have to lay off 50% of his 60 employees within two months.
I can only state Mr. Haynie sent me the letters he received canceling his contract for 30,000 pounds of .223, 7.62, and .50 cal. He won the contract on Tuesday, sent an End-User Certificate on Wednesday, and Thursday evening received the e-mails cancelling his purchases, stating all further milsurp brass would have to be shredded.
I believe the liquidator website has not been updated yet. These directives were only delivered last Thursday. I checked the website and saw the same thing and had my questions. And they had not been changed as of last night.
But if the JPFO is upset about it, there is something there.
We can sit back and let the wool be pulled, or we can complain to our elected officials and force them to straighten it out--if they can.
Incidentally, Government Liquidators, llc is a private corporation that handles the auctioning of U.S. Government surplus.
Gordon Hutchinson
Author, The Great New Orleans Gun Grab
www.theshootist.net
Yes...it was me on Tom's show. I interviewed Larry Haynie, got his story, and e-mailed Tom--who checked it out, and decided to have both of us on the show. Larry Haynie is a businessman. I do not think he would frivolously or maliciously lie about this. He will have to lay off 50% of his 60 employees within two months.
I can only state Mr. Haynie sent me the letters he received canceling his contract for 30,000 pounds of .223, 7.62, and .50 cal. He won the contract on Tuesday, sent an End-User Certificate on Wednesday, and Thursday evening received the e-mails cancelling his purchases, stating all further milsurp brass would have to be shredded.
I believe the liquidator website has not been updated yet. These directives were only delivered last Thursday. I checked the website and saw the same thing and had my questions. And they had not been changed as of last night.
But if the JPFO is upset about it, there is something there.
We can sit back and let the wool be pulled, or we can complain to our elected officials and force them to straighten it out--if they can.
Incidentally, Government Liquidators, llc is a private corporation that handles the auctioning of U.S. Government surplus.
Gordon Hutchinson
Author, The Great New Orleans Gun Grab
www.theshootist.net
zxcvbob
Member
But who is "DOD Surplus"? It's not the same thing as DRMS. Sounds like a private company that screwed up (even if they like sound all official and call their employees "personnel".) But they may have split up a huge batch of scrap brass that included 20mm cartridges for example, that was supposed to be demil'ed, and sold that problem down the line to other companies (like GA Arms, gibrass.com, etc)
Lone_Gunman
Member
If Governmentliquidation.com is a private contractorand is not an official part of DOD in the sense that you were implying.
If there is a link on the DOD website for governmentliquidation.com, doesn't that mean its a seperate website?
Follow this link for the answer:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=1
The moderator of AR15.com (link above) contacted Government Liquidators and asked them if the directive applied to expended brass currently up for auction on their website. Their answer:
"The recently implemented mutilation requirement applies to all current and future auctions that contain fired shell casings."
Go to the link and read it for yourself.
Gordon Hutchinson
"The Great New Orleans Gun Grab"
www.theshootist.net
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=1
The moderator of AR15.com (link above) contacted Government Liquidators and asked them if the directive applied to expended brass currently up for auction on their website. Their answer:
"The recently implemented mutilation requirement applies to all current and future auctions that contain fired shell casings."
Go to the link and read it for yourself.
Gordon Hutchinson
"The Great New Orleans Gun Grab"
www.theshootist.net
D. Manley
Member
Jeff, I hope you're right but I fear you're not. It seems your assumptions are based on pre-existing documents and the fact the auction site has not yet been updated. Assuming you are correct it means every supplier (and, not just Atlanta Arms) of military brass is wrong...along with, the NRA. On a positive note, I've found that suppliers have been authorized to sell their current inventory.
I've twice been in contact with NRA-ILA if if this is a faux problem, they certainly are not aware of it. There are hopes the new policy can be reversed and I only a few minutes ago got the following email:
If you look up the Demil Codes you will find they also include an Integrity Code or IC.
The IC can still cause things classified under a Demil code not normaly requiring destruction to require destruction or mutilation.
Many civilian legal vehicles once sold have also recently been being destroyed rather than sold as surplus. Hummers, logistics trucks etc.
The initial cause of change would appear to be some F-14 parts (a discontinued US air superiority fighter, the one of Top Gun fame) were still finding thier way to Iran.
The United States organized a military coup to overthrow the democracy of Iran and put the Shah in power (operation Ajax). The full title of the Shah meaning King of Kings.
This was nothing new, the British had done the same previously in the 1920s to overthrow an Iran democracy to install a Tyrant after Iran nationalized oil.
This was once again over oil, Iran being a major source of oil during cold war tensions when most of the world was either joined with the US or joined with the Soviet Union.
Part of helping the Shah included giving him powerful military capability. So the only other nation on earth to aquire the F-14 was Iran. This would enable Iran to dominate in the air for decades as can be seen in the Iran Iraq war when Iraqi instructions essentialy told enemy fighter pilots to flee at the first sign of the F-14.
The F-14 can engage and destroy enemy fighters from over 115 miles away with the AIM-54 missle. Further than the officialy used AIM 120 variants still used by the US military today.
That is to say the F-14 is still today a major air threat.
The Shah helped modernize tha nation, but was still a foriegn installed tyrant resented by the population, and who used severe oppression to crush any objection.
The people of Iran rose up and overthrew the Tyrant. Installing in his place an Islamic Republic.
The nation went from being ruled by a Tyrant with close ties to the USA (put in power by the USA) to an enemy of the United States with very short notice.
Now those weapons once given to an ally pose a serious risk to both the USA and others in the region if they find themselves engaged in a war with Iran.
The people of Iran still resent the overthrow of thier democracies, as does the government and that makes them an even greater danger to the United States. Justified or not, they are as a result even more likely to use major force against outsiders in any future tensions. That is one of the big reasons nobody wants them to aquire a nuclear weapon.
Iran however has trouble keeping the F-14 running, it is a very exepnsive aircraft requiring extensive maintenance.
So no parts from the manufacturer (in the US) leaves them struggling to keep them flying.
The US wishes for it stay that way.
Anyways on to how that effected brass.
So in light of some surplus parts making thier way to Iran policy changes were rapidly put into effect to change how surplus is dealt with.
During that rapid rush to change some people with thier own motives may have seen an opportunity in regards to brass.
So even though fired small arms brass has nothing to do with the concern, overall change in policies see change for everything.
By changing the IC code even if it remains Demil B it can require destruction.
A lot of people will realize small arms have nothing to do with the initial official concerns and changes which started prior to Obama.
With enough immediate pressure it can assure things are clarified now, and what could have become a major issue for shooters and ammo supplies becomes a non issue.
It takes phone calls and a show of concern.
It is important that people show a strong concern through phone calls and letters. That lets everyone know the American people are paying attention and will not tolerate anti 2nd Amendment sentiment or policies. That helps on many fronts, not just the immediate one because it reduces confidence in those with an anti agenda.
If some lower in the chain of command interpreted things in a certain way, such a show of concern can cause immedate change, and what was a real problem can appear to have never been a problem at all. Changed so fast people are unsure if it really was a problem.
It's still the official DOD information. They are the DOD contractor.
What does DEMIL Code B say? It says that it doesn't have to be destroyed. Someone is putting out bad information and it's most likely DODLiquidators and all the people pushing panic buttons. Anyone who can read at the 9th grade level can read the definitions of the DEMIL Codes and see that DEMIL Code B does not require destruction. If the email said DEMIL Code D it would have some credibility. But it says B. So either the email is wrong or the whole thing is some kind of misunderstanding.
I've got an email out to the Defense Logistic Agency Customer Service Center. Hopefully I'll have the correct information soon. These policy changes are not verbal. There is always a written message. It seems kind of funny that no one not even Defense Liquidators can supply a copy of the message changing the policy.
In 28 years and 11 months in the Army I never once saw anything like this happen without a written message that you could access and read for yourself.
Something smells to high heaven about this whole situation. If the policy changed, it's not anywhere on the DLA website. They would post changes like that immediately because in many cases that's where the end users go for the info.
Librarian
Member
I sent an email to DLA Public Affairs and asked. Maybe they'll answer.
Schleprok62
Member
This is one of the links posted earlier in this thread... it's says clearly that this stuff must be destroyed...
From this auction
"LOT (4, 043LBS) APPROXIMATE OF FIRED BRASS TO INLCUDE: (2, 908LBS) APPROX OF 5. 56; (50LBS) APPROX OF 7. 62 LINKS; (66LBS) APPROX OF 5. 56 LINKS; (368LBS) APPROX OF 7. 62; (651LBS) APPROX OF 9MM. PROPERTY IS STORED IN CARDBOARD BOXES AND ON (9) PALLETS WHICH ARE INCLUDED IN WEIGHT AND SALE. NO PREVIEW FOR THIS SALE. THIS IS A UNMANNED SITE, LOAD OUTS BY APPOINTMENT ONLY. BASE SCALES AVAILABLE FOR WEIGHING OF CONVEYANCE. ALL SCRAP UNDER THIS CONTRACT REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY. TITLE TO THE MATERIAL DOES NOT PASS TO THE BUYER UNTIL THE SCRAP HAS BEEN MUTILATED. BUYER AGREES TO ALLOW USG PERSONNEL TO WITNESS DESTRUCTION."
From this auction
"LOT (4, 043LBS) APPROXIMATE OF FIRED BRASS TO INLCUDE: (2, 908LBS) APPROX OF 5. 56; (50LBS) APPROX OF 7. 62 LINKS; (66LBS) APPROX OF 5. 56 LINKS; (368LBS) APPROX OF 7. 62; (651LBS) APPROX OF 9MM. PROPERTY IS STORED IN CARDBOARD BOXES AND ON (9) PALLETS WHICH ARE INCLUDED IN WEIGHT AND SALE. NO PREVIEW FOR THIS SALE. THIS IS A UNMANNED SITE, LOAD OUTS BY APPOINTMENT ONLY. BASE SCALES AVAILABLE FOR WEIGHING OF CONVEYANCE. ALL SCRAP UNDER THIS CONTRACT REQUIRES MUTILATION BY THE BUYER PRIOR TO REMOVAL IF ALLOWED BY THE INSTALLATION OR MUTILATION MUST BE WITNESSED AND CERTIFIED BY DOD SURPLUS PERSONNEL AT ANOTHER FACILITY. TITLE TO THE MATERIAL DOES NOT PASS TO THE BUYER UNTIL THE SCRAP HAS BEEN MUTILATED. BUYER AGREES TO ALLOW USG PERSONNEL TO WITNESS DESTRUCTION."
Jeff White writes
That may be the kicker. In a world of 'global economy' the DOD may be making a move to 'standardize' where they simply are going to mutiliate it ALL simply because SOME may be purchased by a foreign body for export.
Mutilate it all and you don't have to worry.
That may be the kicker. In a world of 'global economy' the DOD may be making a move to 'standardize' where they simply are going to mutiliate it ALL simply because SOME may be purchased by a foreign body for export.
Mutilate it all and you don't have to worry.
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
This link is from the official DOD Website TODAY MARCH 16, 2009 It is current information.
Here is another auction:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
And another:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
And another:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
They removed these auctions and I cant find anymore spent brass on the site. The second one is there but now says that it must be destroyed.:banghead:
This link is from the official DOD Website TODAY MARCH 16, 2009 It is current information.
Here is another auction:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
And another:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
And another:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD
They removed these auctions and I cant find anymore spent brass on the site. The second one is there but now says that it must be destroyed.:banghead:
ACBMWM3
member
Yepp all the auctions that an hour ago said no mutilation required now says it has to be...
D. Manley
Member
Jeff, if you'll check the AUCTION LINK in your original post you'll find it has been pulled. THIS is what you'll now see required by Government Liquidations.
Lone_Gunman
Member
OK so it looks like this may be for real.
Who was in charge of making this decision? Was it a nameless bureaucrat, or would this have been an official decision handed down from the Office of the President or what?
Who was in charge of making this decision? Was it a nameless bureaucrat, or would this have been an official decision handed down from the Office of the President or what?
RX-178
Member
If the letter was sent by the DLA, then Government Liquidations received it too, and will comply with it.
That does not mean that it was not a clerical error. Spent ammo casings have ALWAYS been Demil Code B, and the letter CITES Demil Code B very clearly.
People have written the NRA, and received a response that they have been working with the DoD on this issue for a several days, and believe a clerical error has taken place.
BUT, that doesn't change the situation. The DLA has signed off on a policy that requires mutilation of spent brass, even though the policy is based on an incorrect code.
Until this is corrected, the order to mutilate spent brass is the current policy.
(edited to add) And Government Liquidations is not part of the DoD in any way shape or form. They sell surplus equipment from ANY branch of the government. They would have no knowledge of the circumstances behind the DLA letter other than receiving it, and complying with it as it was written.
That does not mean that it was not a clerical error. Spent ammo casings have ALWAYS been Demil Code B, and the letter CITES Demil Code B very clearly.
People have written the NRA, and received a response that they have been working with the DoD on this issue for a several days, and believe a clerical error has taken place.
BUT, that doesn't change the situation. The DLA has signed off on a policy that requires mutilation of spent brass, even though the policy is based on an incorrect code.
Until this is corrected, the order to mutilate spent brass is the current policy.
(edited to add) And Government Liquidations is not part of the DoD in any way shape or form. They sell surplus equipment from ANY branch of the government. They would have no knowledge of the circumstances behind the DLA letter other than receiving it, and complying with it as it was written.
I think Jeff's hung up on Demil Code B...
However, as a retired military type myself, I think he should dig a little further into the regs.
They've added an additional Integrity Code 3 as a suffix to the Code B brass.
I hate tinfoil hattery as much as the next guy, but this actually looks like it's been written in concrete, folks may not get intact cartridge brass anymore, even if they're a domestic customer. Why?
I dunno, and it's going to have to come out in the wash soon enough. Supposedly, the NRA-ILA is trying to get a waiver through the DoD to exempt .50 caliber and smaller cartridge brass from the new Demil Code B Integrity Code 3 rule as promulgated late last week by the DLA to their underlings.
I figure it's the Navy vice admiral in charge of DLA, covering his sore posterior after the F-14 Tomcat parts SNAFU. That, or it's one of his staff, playing a little fast and loose with the rules.
As for the auctions that still show that the stuff doesn't have to be mutilated, it's because they haven't been updated yet. Remember, the edict came out late last week. One of the folks who won a 45,000 lb. cartridge brass auction earlier last week called to confirm the rumor before he drove to pick up the stuff, and was told he would either have to demil the brass he won, or he could get a refund on his auction price. IOW, it's ex-post facto. His story is quoted below, exactly as I found it in the parallel discussion now being held at ARFCOM.
Not good, and if you think about folks like Georgia Arms, GIBrass, Black Hills, and all the other businesses and home reloaders who use Lake City brass, it does make me wonder just what in the hell they were thinking...
More here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248
This is the sad part. The poor guy thought he was good to go:
I would LOVE for this to be a rumor, or a hoax, honestly. Maybe somebody at DLA will just get smacked upside the head, and things will return to normal...
However, as a retired military type myself, I think he should dig a little further into the regs.
They've added an additional Integrity Code 3 as a suffix to the Code B brass.
I hate tinfoil hattery as much as the next guy, but this actually looks like it's been written in concrete, folks may not get intact cartridge brass anymore, even if they're a domestic customer. Why?
I dunno, and it's going to have to come out in the wash soon enough. Supposedly, the NRA-ILA is trying to get a waiver through the DoD to exempt .50 caliber and smaller cartridge brass from the new Demil Code B Integrity Code 3 rule as promulgated late last week by the DLA to their underlings.
I figure it's the Navy vice admiral in charge of DLA, covering his sore posterior after the F-14 Tomcat parts SNAFU. That, or it's one of his staff, playing a little fast and loose with the rules.
As for the auctions that still show that the stuff doesn't have to be mutilated, it's because they haven't been updated yet. Remember, the edict came out late last week. One of the folks who won a 45,000 lb. cartridge brass auction earlier last week called to confirm the rumor before he drove to pick up the stuff, and was told he would either have to demil the brass he won, or he could get a refund on his auction price. IOW, it's ex-post facto. His story is quoted below, exactly as I found it in the parallel discussion now being held at ARFCOM.
Not good, and if you think about folks like Georgia Arms, GIBrass, Black Hills, and all the other businesses and home reloaders who use Lake City brass, it does make me wonder just what in the hell they were thinking...
More here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248
This is the sad part. The poor guy thought he was good to go:
I would LOVE for this to be a rumor, or a hoax, honestly. Maybe somebody at DLA will just get smacked upside the head, and things will return to normal...
Reading through all the online sources related to this event, I see three possible origins of the decision:
Meanwhile, I'm contacting the liaison staff at the offices of my representatives in Congress. What are you doing about it?
Don't just sit there, we must respond quickly and loudly so they don't think we'll take all future blows laying down.
- A complete screw up, which may or may not be corrected.
- A 'backdoor' attack on the shooting public by the new Obama administration.
- A response to the domestic purchase and subsequent export of US military surplus (not just brass, but other goods) to global regions where the material may be used against us.
Meanwhile, I'm contacting the liaison staff at the offices of my representatives in Congress. What are you doing about it?
Don't just sit there, we must respond quickly and loudly so they don't think we'll take all future blows laying down.
FromMyColdDeadHand
Member
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 17
I'm looking at it from another prespective. Let's say the ammo was recent (last few years production). They bought the metal, made the rounds and are now basicly returning it to metal. Well, copper and zinc are about 25% of the price they were over the past few years. So not only did they buy high and sell low, they ran thru money forming the cases, and I guess shredding them too.
That is destroying money at a level that would make the AIG guys blush.
What percentage of .223/5.56 ammo made each year for the civilian market are reprocessed MIL cases?
That is destroying money at a level that would make the AIG guys blush.
What percentage of .223/5.56 ammo made each year for the civilian market are reprocessed MIL cases?
One issue may be that not all the expended brass was bought for remanufacture/reloading. If remanufacture/reloading is a small fraction of what is bought every year the issue of export control becomes much more prominent.
I'll go with Bullet #2 for $500 Alex. This has executive branch written all over it. No bill, no order. Just a rule change.
The "F-14" example is much different and way out of context. The United States Federal Government has supplied more munitions to people around the world than anyone. Ours, our enemy's, whoever.
And now all of the sudden they are worried about the Taliban getting spent 5.56 brass? So they can reload in their caves!?
I don't think so!
ants, you have it right. Let our Reps know that "somehow" an industry is being affected by this and common folk are having to pay more.
Letter sent today. Tin Foil Rant: OFF
salthouse
Member
Check the links that were posted yesterday as "not requiring mutilation". They seem to have either been change to require mutilation or they have been "Lot pulled by the Sales Admin Team". My guess is that the website did not have the most current information.
(I know, hard to believe there could be a mistake on the internet)
(I know, hard to believe there could be a mistake on the internet)
Reality Check
Government Liquidations is not A contractor handling the brass.
Government Liquidations is THE contractor handling the brass.
Our government has cut off the brass.
No explanation given.
Tinfoil or not, that is your reality check.
Naysayers, please pull your heads out of the sand.
"In 28 years and 11 months in the Army I never once saw anything like this happen without a written message that you could access and read for yourself.
Something smells to high heaven about this whole situation. If the policy changed, it's not anywhere on the DLA website. They would post changes like that immediately because in many cases that's where the end users go for the info."
I understand you hesitancy, but our country is under new management comrade.
CONTACT YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES TODAY!!!
Government Liquidations is not A contractor handling the brass.
Government Liquidations is THE contractor handling the brass.
Our government has cut off the brass.
No explanation given.
Tinfoil or not, that is your reality check.
Naysayers, please pull your heads out of the sand.
"In 28 years and 11 months in the Army I never once saw anything like this happen without a written message that you could access and read for yourself.
Something smells to high heaven about this whole situation. If the policy changed, it's not anywhere on the DLA website. They would post changes like that immediately because in many cases that's where the end users go for the info."
I understand you hesitancy, but our country is under new management comrade.
CONTACT YOUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES TODAY!!!
Last edited:
an update: This morning I spoke in a live chat session to a GovLiquidations.com representative. Below is a transcript. They seemed to genuinely understand our predicament. Please remember, its not GovLiq's fault. Contact your rep/senator ASAP.
chat said:
- Status
