The DOD Surplus Brass Controversy - Fact v. Rumor

Can anyone quantify the loss to the government? I think that if not presented right, people will think that it is a bunch of militia guys complaining that the military doesn't give them ammo anymore.

The shell casings sell for what?
The mutilted scrap sells for what?
How much do they sell in a year?
How much money is the Govt throwing away?

There is the loss of that revenue, then on the other side there are the PD/LEO organizations that will have to pay more for ammo, what do they have to cut?

Turn the dollars lost by the federal government and convert that into a tangible equivilent and then put that with the loss by the LEOs.

I don't want to make it totally about the LEOs, since I don't want restrictions on the casings, but they make a great focal point.

Fact: The government has cutoff the unmutilated brass with no explanation
Fact: By ordering the mutilation of all brass, the government is devaluing the surplus and losing revenue. Figures vary on the losses, but the point is indisputable.
Fact: This action will create a loss of jobs in the ammunition industry.
Fact: This action will negatively affect the supply of ammo to the citizens. AMMUNITION CONTROL = GUN CONTROL = THIS IS AN ASSAULT ON YOUR SECOND AMENDMENT RIGHTS

While it remains unclear whether this is an intentional act on behalf of our government, or a mistake, the above facts are indisputable.
The brass was bought and paid for by the taxpayer. It belongs to you and me.
CONTACT YOUR ELECTED OFFICIALS!!!

Emailed state and US senators and State rep this morning. US rep is useless. I know, bad attitude on my part.

If I were the Director of the DLA...

And I excluded people from buying reloadable cartridge brass by demil/shredding/crushing/mutilating/popping action, what would I stand to gain?

IOW, who's going to bid on all that brass once it's rendered unusable by a reloader?

The Chinese? Maybe. They've been buying up a lot of our scrap metals, but are they hungry for cartridge brass alloy?

What about commercial ammunition manufacturers? Would Olin-Winchester/Remington/Federal/Speer/Hornady/Nosler want ready-made cartridge brass to smelt down and form into cartridge buttons for drawing into new rounds? They'd get it for pennies on the dollar compared to sourcing the raw materials, namely copper and zinc, needed to make new brass.

I'm not saying there's collusion going on here, but it could be a sweetheart deal for ammo manufacturers, who could even sell rounds made from that scrapped brass back to the government.

I'd still have to wonder if economically, the DLA didn't shoot themselves in the foot.

Alright guys. It seems as if after all has been hashed out, this ruling is in fact real. First order of business of course is to contact our representatives. At the same time, I think, in order to more directly focus our displeasure, and dispell all the tin foil hat murmer, we need to find out exactly where this directive originated. We all have our suspicions, I'm sure, but the truth will be a powerful tool for us. That being said, is anyone here familiar with how to do a freedom of information act request? I'm thinking that this may be a way for us to get to the bottom of this.
I'm hoping the NRA or GOA are working on this angle. Any members here (Dave Workman, or others) know how to go about this? Let's use all the tools in our arsenal.

That being said, is anyone here familiar with how to do a freedom of information act request?

Click to expand...

http://www.dla.mil/public_info/efoia/FOIAServCntr9a.html#POC

Possible breaking news:

You might want to consider this as breaking news...

I don't post a lot around here and most of you have no idea who I am. Fact is, I'm an IT guy. A regular, run-of-the-mill computer jockey. But I happen to work for DOD Surplus/Government Liquidation. I've been told by my CEO that as of this morning the requirement to mutilate expended brass has been lift by virtue of a reclassification from Demil B to Demil Q. This applies to all calibers .50 and under. I'm still trying to get confirmation that .50 cal is included in the "safe to sell" list, or whether mutilation is still required.

I'm busy at work right now, but I will try to post back with more detail and updates when I get the chance.

Ed

posted today 12:12 Central time

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=11

Like this one:

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2259942&convertTo=USD

I agree with HSO.

There have been earlier reports that NRA prople were having discussions with individuals in the Defense Department concerning this issue. Maybe they got somewhere - at least I hope so.

That said, I would still like to know where this order originated, and why.

It's been shown that DOD Surplus/ Goverment liquidations are not updated "up to the minute". Continually linking to individual lots up for auction has muddied the waters through out this ordeal.
I am awaiting confirmation from the industry that the "unmutilated" brass is flowing again, before declaring "all is well".

I recieved this e-mail from Georgia Arms today. Sorry if someone has already posted.

To our Valued Customers,

Effective 3/12/09 DOD Surplus, LLC is requiring the mutilation of all spent shell casings. This, of course is designed to prevent the recycling of these cases. This creates a situation that would appear to be the opposite of what our national focus is reported to be. As we are asked to recycle and move to GREEN products on one hand, we are being instructed to destroy this brass rather than recycle it on the other. First, this decreases the value of this surplus product to the government by about 80%, wasting revenue that we desperately need in these economically stressed times. Second, destroying this brass creates a huge expenditure of energy to resmelt, realloy, restamp and redraw this now unusable product to make it usable again. How is that going green and how does that benefit anyone? Third, it puts unnecessary economic stress on our job market. There is no question that this new policy will result in layoffs to some of our employees. I believe our goal should be to create more jobs, not more unemployment. This is not to mention the obvious We all need to contact our represenatives and let them know how destructive this new directive is to our economy.

We are evaluating our present inventory of 223, 308 brass to determine how best to supply these ammunitions to orders on hand as far back as 10/08. We will advise you, our customer, this week on website & through email our decisions on future sale, shipments.

Thanks
Georgia Arms

Below are two emails that we received from DOD (Department of Defense):

Dear Valued Customer:
Please take a moment to note important changes set forth by the Defense Logistics Agency:
Recently it has been determined that fired munitions of all calibers, shapes and sizes have been designated to be Demil code B. As a result and in conjunction with DLA's current Demil code B policy, this notice will serve as official notification which requires Scrap Venture (SV) to implement mutilation as a condition of sale for all sales of fired munitions effective immediately. This notice also requires SV to immediately cease delivery of any fired munitions that have been recently sold or on active term contracts, unless the material has been mutilated prior to sale or SV personnel can attest to the mutilation after delivery. A certificate of destruction is required in either case.
Thank you,
DOD Surplus
15051 N Kierland Blvd # 300
Scottsdale, AZ 85254

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

March 12, 2009

Georgia Arms
PO Box 238
Villa Rica, GA 30180

Re: Event 7084-6200:

Dear Larry Haynie,

Effective immediately DOD Surplus, LLC, will be implementing new requirements for mutilation of fired shell casings. The new DRMS requirement calls for DOD Surplus personnel to witness the mutilation of the property and sign the Certificate of Destruction. Mutilation of the property can be done at the DRMO, if permitted by the Government, or it may be mutilated at a site chosen by the buyer. Mutilation means that the property will be destroyed to the extent prevents its reuse or reconstruction. DOD Surplus personnel will determine when property has been sufficiently mutilated to meet the requirements of the Government.

If you do not agree with the new conditions of your spot sale, please sign the appropriate box provided below stating that you do not agree to the new terms and would like to cancel your purchase effective immediately. If you do agree to the new terms please sign in the appropriate box provided below to acknowledge your understanding and agreement with the new requirements relating to your purchase. Fax the signed document back to (480) 367-1450, emailed responses are not acceptable.

Please respond to this request no later than close of business Monday, March 16th, 2009.

Sincerely,

Government Liquidation.

Quote: NavyLT

" Like this one:
http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auctio...&convertTo=USD "


This and all other lots I found still say needed to be mutilated for sale.

http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=2272021&convertTo=USD

You might want to consider this as breaking news...

I don't post a lot around here and most of you have no idea who I am. Fact is, I'm an IT guy. A regular, run-of-the-mill computer jockey. But I happen to work for DOD Surplus/Government Liquidation. I've been told by my CEO that as of this morning the requirement to mutilate expended brass has been lift by virtue of a reclassification from Demil B to Demil Q. This applies to all calibers .50 and under. I'm still trying to get confirmation that .50 cal is included in the "safe to sell" list, or whether mutilation is still required.

I'm busy at work right now, but I will try to post back with more detail and updates when I get the chance.

Ed

Click to expand...

That would indeed be good news, let's hope it's accurate. This entire affair feels like the Government Surplus ship is lacking a decision maker and is a bit adrift.

D Manley- if you follow the link to the arfcom thread you'll read that the DLA was acting over the protests of the CEO of DoD S/ GL....

Of course this is all unsubstantiated as of now.....

Posted at 12:31 Central:

The DLA was not going to listen to the CEO of our company, alone, as the only voice of protest.

I'm not at liberty to post anything official –– I'm not that important and I'm not at that pay grade. There will be another follow up email (likely today) to all subscribers of the newsletter from our website that started this whole ordeal.

Ed
User Info


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=11

hmm... well looking it up on the DoD website, i cant really fin anything. but the fact that several dealers have that notice up is in and of itself a rather big sign that somethings up.

More possible good news:

Posted today 2:56 pm Central:

We won!

Here is the poop I just got from Gov Liquidation.

This is the transcript of the live chat I just had.


Please wait for a site operator to respond.

You are now chatting with 'Heidi'

Heidi: Welcome to our live chat service! How may I assist you?

Todd: Hello Heidi

Heidi: Hi!~

Todd: I have been told that all spent brass cases are to be destroyed as part of the EUC.

Todd: I have also heard that this NEW policy is being reversed.

Heidi: That is partially correct.

Todd: What is the truth?

Heidi: That is also partially correct.

Todd: Can you clearify as to what is happening?

Heidi: We received a slight change in the mutilation requirements for expended cartridges. Effective immediately any expended mention 50 caliber(12.7mm) or smaller can be released without mutilation. This includes expended cartridges and links. All other expended munitions larger than 50 cal including grenade fuses and flare canisters etc must still be mutilated.

Todd: So this is fact as of right now?

Todd: Can you tell me the source of who made the chage of the EUC you mentioned??

Heidi: This is for all munitions, not just ones that require an EUC.

Todd: Great! who is the governing body that made the change back to allowing sales of 50 caliber and below without mutilation?

Heidi: This came from the Defense Logistics Agency.

Heidi: If you have any more questions or concerns, please email management.

Todd: Thank you for your time.


http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=12

Here is the Demil codes that I pulled off the net recently.

DEMILITARIZATION CODES TO BE ASSIGNED TO FEDERAL SUPPLY ITEMS AND CODING GUIDANCE

DEMILITARIZATION CODES

CODE EXPLANATION

A Non-MLI/Non-CCLI -- Demilitarization not required.

B MLI (Non-SME) -- Demilitarization not required. Trade Security Controls required at disposition.

C MLI (SME) -- Remove and/or demilitarization installed key point(s), as prescribed in this manual, or lethal parts, components and accessories.

D MLI (SME) -- Total destruction of item and components so as to preclude restoration or repair to a usable condition by melting, cutting, tearing, scratching, crushing, breaking, punching, neutralizing, etc. (As an alternate, burial or deep water dumping may be used when approved by the DOD Demilitarization Program Office.)

E MLI -- Demilitarization instructions to be furnished by the DoD Demilitarization Program Office.


F MLI (SME) -- Demilitarization instructions to be furnished by the Item/Technical Manager/Equipment Specialist.

G MLI (SME) -- MLI Demilitarization Required -- AEDA. Demilitarization, and, if required, declassification and/or removal of sensitive marking or information, will be accomplished prior to physical transfer to a DRMO. This code will be used for all AEDA items including those which also require declassification and/or removal of sensitive markings or information.

P MLI (SME) -- MLI (Security Classified Item) -- Declassification, and any other required demilitarization, and removal of any sensitive markings or information will be accomplished prior to accountability or physical transfer to a DRMO. This code will not be assigned to ammunition, explosive and dangerous articles (AEDA) items.

Q CCLI -- Commerce Control List Item -- Demilitarization not required. CCLIs are dual use (military, commercial and other strategic uses) items under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Industry and Security, U.S. Department of Commerce, through the Export Administration Regulations. The types of items controlled under the CCL are commodities (i.e., equipment, materials, electronics, etc.), software and technology. The CCL does not include those items exclusively controlled by another department or agency of the U.S. government. (See DOD 4160.21-M-1, Chapter 3 and Appendix 5).


Link below is trade.

http://www.army.mil/usapa/epubs/pdf/r700_144.pdf

And that teacup spilled all over Georgia Arms?

Surely that means it's true.

Again from arfcom. This is the only place I can find information coming out. I cannot vouch for it's authenticity but it corroborates previously posted information:

1:27 central

Originally Posted By SandHillsHillbilly:
This supposedly came from Senator Lindsey Graham's office today:

Below is what Senator Graham's office has found.

They are monitoring the waiver request closely and should know something in the next 2-3 weeks.

As you know, this would be a big problem for law enforcement agencies with
low budgets (most of them) and recreational shooters who depend on expended
military brass for reloading if the waiver is not granted. There is no
"security risk" for selling used brass in bulk. It was probably just a
short-sighted bureaucratic move that did not foresee the unintended
consequences.

Military property is subject to certain coding, according to its type and
use, whether it can be sold commercially and, if so, under what
restrictions.

According to the sales division of the Defense Reutilization and Marketing
Service (DRMS), fired small arms cartridge cases, until recently, were DEMIL
(demilitarization) Code E, meaning that they could not be sold unless
destroyed. However, a waiver to the destruction requirement allowed the
cases to be sold intact, within the United States, but not for export.

Property given DEMIL Code B could be sold as well, under some restrictions.
However, in the last days of the Bush Administration, Under-Secretary Bell
issued a policy letter prohibiting the sale of Code B property. A waiver
could be obtained, to allow the sale of Code B property if destroyed in a
prescribed manner. At the time, this was irrelevant to the question of small
arms cartridge cases, because they were still Code E.

Recently, however, the Demilitarization Coding Management Office within the
DRMS recommended that small arms cartridge cases be given Code B. This
recommendation was accepted. Therefore, currently, fired military small arms
cartridge cases are Code B property that may be sold only if destroyed.

However, the sales division of DRMS, recognizing the impact that this new
policy will have on small businesses who sell loaded ammunition utilizing
these fired cases, and upon gun owners who purchase such ammunition at
considerable cost savings, has suspended the collection of fired cartridge
cases from military bases, to prevent their destruction. And, they will be
petitioning for a waiver, to allow the sale of intact cartridge cases .50
caliber and below. They are not asking for a waiver for larger cases, which
are purchased as souvenir type items –– artillery shells, for example. They
anticipate that within the next 2-3 weeks, the waiver will be approved.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=844248&page=11

If this is correct than someone within DCMO requested reclassification of small arms cartridge cases specifically.
While some may consider this a "tempest in a teapot" or a "non-issue", the fact of the matter is that this brass supply has been cutoff to the ammunition industry for 5 days.
Whether it was intentional or accidental the situation is serious to those in the industry. "Pooh Poohing" the facts does not make them go away.

What's true? That this was a backdoor attempt by the Obama Administration at gun control? Or that someone at Gov Liquidators misunderstood something that was said by DLA and implemented a policy that didn't need to be implemented?

Given the total lack of any written guidance on this policy change, I am inclined to believe the latter. Not that I don't think we can trust the administration, but that something as trivial as DEMIL guidance for spent brass isn't important enough to reach the White House.

Click to expand...

Jeff - my guess is someone from on top decided this was a good idea and some flunky implemented it. The flunky will get blamed.

This kind of thing is exactly the kind of thing Obama et al would do. They can't hit us directly right this second, so they tried a sneak attack. I don't think they realized how much reloaded ammo there is, or maybe they did and thought this was a way to reduce the availability of ammo without having to actually legislate anything.