CCW, camping & motorcycles

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Carry every time, every place. I've taken a decent number of spills, (never while carrying) but I still would greatly prefer to have it on me. You never know where you will end up, or what type of area you will have to go through to get there. Especially on a motorcycle trip.
 
Isn't it illegal to carry in a Federal Park?

I carry a .45 Commander in my magnetic tank bag. It's a smallish one (the tank bag), and my cell phone lives there too. When I stop, it comes with me. All my other gear stays in the saddle bags and tail bag.

Last April I camped over night in a Federal Park somewhere in southwestern New Mexico. Stuffed my .45 (a Government model, at the time) inside my helmet in the tent. About three AM, there was some commotion outside by the fire. I was relieved to see the south end of a north bound skunk when I unzipped the tent. Had it been a bear, I would have felt fairly safe at that range with 8 hot .45 rounds at the ready.


-Matt
 
Ammo and gun in the same case is supposedly a felony in California.

That is not true!!!!

CA law is very complex and unless you want to learn it in great detail I would recomend you keep it locked up in a locked container and unloaded.
You can keep both the unloaded gun and ammunition in the same container even in a detached magazine just not inside the firearm.




Once the firearm and magazines are locked in a locked container it is immune to PC 12025 which only applies to concealed handguns. By putting a handgun in any container including a locked container you would be illegaly concealing it, which is why there is the exemption for locked containers.
PC12025 states it is illegal to have a concealed handgun, and then lists multiple other aspects that apply, but then exemptions remove the entire unlawfulness and all application of PC12025.
PC12025 is not a law on how you must carry a handgun! It simply outlaws concealing the firearm. The exemptions then defacto become the requirements of transport of something concealed to not violate PC12025.
Case law then defines what those exemptions mean.

Even the police in much of CA are confused on CA law so someone that does not know it should not try to understand it in 5 minutes. It will take a huge page of information and similar but very legaly different definitions of of violations applying to different scenarios.



Even some of the posters in open threads at Californiaopencarry, and the californiaconcealedcarry website are wrong, and then others repeat thier wrong information. Most of it is correct and someone usualy but not always properly corrects threads. It still contains random people giving thier random 2 cents though, and some repeating the wrong things.
Even the FAQ at the Californiaconcealedcarry carry website gets open carry definitions confused and gives slightly wrong information, but they are accurate on CCW.


PC12025 applies to concealed handguns. That is it. If the handgun is not concealed then it does not apply (and the magazine can be considered the handgun). It also does not apply if it is in a locked container, such as one with a padlock, keylock combination lock etc. Then PC12025 is no longer active as that creates an exemption to it under PC12026.
You are however always dealing with the definition of loaded under PC12031. Sometimes in combination with PC12025, and sometimes by itself.

There is also case law that is relevant and completely alters the way the law is applied.

There is a third definition of carrying a loaded as it applies to criminal enhancements of someone commiting specific felonies, but that does not apply to carry/transport unless of course you are out victimizing people.
That is what confuses many police because they are most familiar with applying that definition of loaded to gang bangers and thugs.
In that case just having a firearm and any unexpended ammunition under the person's control is considered having a loaded gun even if it is unloaded.
Once again that does NOT apply any other time and is only triggered by the commision of certain felonies.



Additionaly PC12025 only applies to handguns not to long arms with a barrel over 16 inches.
That means it is legal to transport a concealed long arm anywhere in the vehicle. It however cannot be loaded because PC12031 is still in effect. Case law says you can have ammunition in a side saddle or otherwise immediately available for a long gun though without being in violation. That case law is People v. Clark.
(Make sure you don't bring an assault weapon as defined under the law.)
Under PC12031 loaded means
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
Now before you go thinking for yourself, there is case law which defines what this means. The "magazine or clip thereof" applies to "attached to the firearm" and under case law is meant to refer to cover guns which are loaded in some unconventional manner.
It does not refer to a magazine not attached to the firearm, however PC12025 can come into play with a totaly different definition of a violation of law if something is concealed and not exempt by locked container. We can discuss that in a moment.
Under PC12025 if such components of the firearm are concealed then just having ammunition on you is considered carrying a loaded firearm.


For purposes of PC § 12031, a firearm is loaded when a shell or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be fired. A firearm is not loaded if the shell or cartridge is stored
elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. People v. Clark, 45 Cal. App. 4th 1147, 1153
(1996).


There is a further consideration of a violation of PC12025 for people from out of state. That is because your pistol will not and cannot be in the CADOJ database. It means a violation of proper transport or carry is a more serious crime.
It is only applicable if you violate the law, not a condition of compliance with the law.
Under part of PC12025
(6)
By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
So if you violate pc12031 AND PC12025 at the same time since you have no possible way without being a resident of being on file (all pistols purchased in CA are automaticly registered to the purchaser) the enhancement is triggered.
Of course PC 12025 does not count if the gun is in a locked container.


PC12025 basicly says it is illegal to have a concealed handgun without a CCW. That is the entire summary of the statute.
There is then numerous exemptions where the statute does not apply, so it is the exemptions and thier definitions which actualy become the important factor in not violating PC12025, not PC12025 itself.
Case law then defines the meaning more clearly.
PC12025 only applies to concealed handguns, not to open carried(unloaded) or otherwise unconcealed handguns.
That is why people are able to carry an unloaded handgun with a seperate loaded magazine (also unconcealed) because PC12025 is never triggered and PC12031 is never triggered.People often carry loaded magazines on a belt pouch like on an officer's duty belt just to be safe.
If you were to conceal something then PC12031 would still NOT be violated, but PC12025 would be, unless an exemption is triggered.
The main exemption important for transport is a locked container.
Once a locked container is involved an exemption to PC12025 is met, and PC12025 no longer applies.

That means it is in fact legal to store an unloaded pistol and seperate (NOT IN THE GUN) loaded magazines or ammunition in the same locked container because the locked container meets the exemption of PC12025. Meaning at that point the only active statute is PC12031, and that does not constitute loaded under PC12031. If that was a violation of PC12031 then carrying them on a belt loaded also would be, which it is not.

However I advise anyone that is not an expert on the complexity of CA firearm laws to completely avoid any form of open carry, and that especialy includes those from out of state. Especialy since a violation of PC12031 or PC12025 is much more severe (potential felony) since your guns cannot be registered with the CADOJ.
That means you will be keeping your guns concealed and that means an exemption to 12025 must always be in effect for handguns (locked in a locked container.) If you are in a vehicle with a trunk that alone can count as a locked container, and an additional locked container is unnecessary for mere transport, but of course then transport from vehicle to other locations is more complex requiring more knowledge of the laws, so bring a locked container anyways.
 
He is the most accurate compilation of the law I have seen all in one spot. Though you can also look up the law and the case law individualy to find the exact same thing:

"Loaded" from the Penal Code
Loaded Firearm is defined in Penal Code 12031:

12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in
a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the
purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to
examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.

(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place where
it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.

(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell in, or
attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but not
limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm.

(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in any
lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any officer,
employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful purposes
connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm within the
person's place of business, or any person in lawful possession of
private property from having a loaded firearm on that property.

(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would otherwise
be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the person or
property of himself or herself or of another is in immediate, grave
danger and that the carrying of the weapon is necessary for the
preservation of that person or property. As used in this
subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and after
the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has been
notified of the danger and before the arrival of its assistance.

(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying of a
loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making or
attempting to make a lawful arrest.

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.
People v. Clark
People v. Clark(1996) 45 Cal.App.4th 1147 , 53 Cal.Rptr.2d 99 specifically limited 12031(g) by holding that in order to be “loaded” a firearm must have ammunition “placed into a position from which it can be fired”. The case rested on the fact that a shotgun is not loaded when shotgun shells were attached to a shotgun inside a buttstock shell carrier.

The key paragraphs of the decision:

The term "loaded" has a commonly understood meaning: "to put a load
or charge in (a device or piece of equipment) a gun" or "to put a
load on or in a carrier, device, or container; esp: to insert the
charge or cartridge into the chamber of a firearm." (Webster's New
Collegiate Dict. (1976) p. 674.) Under the commonly understood
meaning of the term "loaded," a firearm is"loaded" when a shell
or cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be
fired; the shotgun is not "loaded" if the shell or cartridge is
stored elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. The
shells here were placed in a separate storage compartment of the
shotgun and were not yet "loaded" as the term is commonly understood.

There is nothing in Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 which
indicates the Legislature did not intend to use the term "loaded" in
its commonly understood meaning.

We note Penal Code section 12031 states it is defining the term
"loaded" "for the purposes of this section" (Pen. Code, § 12031,
subd. (g)); it does not state it is applicable to a Health and Safety
Code offense nor does Health and Safety Code section 11370.1 refer to
the Penal Code definition.

Second, even if we were to accept the Attorney General's assertion
that the definition of "loaded" contained in Penal Code section
12031, subdivision (g) applies to Health and Safety Code section
11370.1, subdivision (a), we would still conclude the shotgun here
was not loaded.

[2] A statute "must be given a reasonable and commonsense
interpretation consistent with the apparent purpose and intention of
the Legislature, practical rather than technical in nature, and
which, when applied, will result in wise policy rather than mischief
or absurdity. [Citations.]" (Beaty v. Imperial Irrigation Dist.
(1986) 186 Cal.App.3d 897, 902 [231 Cal.Rptr. 128].) "The words must
be construed in context in light of the nature and obvious purpose of
the statute where they appear. [Citation.]" (Decker v. City of
Imperial Beach (1989) 209 Cal.App.3d 349, 354 [257 Cal.Rptr. 356];
Lakin v. Watkins Associated Industries(1993) 6 Cal.4th 644, 659 [25
Cal.Rptr.2d 109, 863 P.2d 179].)

Given the examples are all consistent with an intent to use the
common meaning of "loaded," it follows the Legislature's use of
the phrase "attached in any manner" to the firearm was intended to
encompass a situation where a shell or cartridge might be
attached to a firearm or "loaded" for firing by some
unconventional method. The phrase does not demonstrate a clear
Legislative intent to deem a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is
attached to a firearm; in particular, it does not indicate a clear
intent to deem a gun "loaded" when the ammunition, as here, is in a
storage compartment which is not equivalent to either a magazine or
clip and from which the ammunition cannot be fired. Our conclusion
that the Legislature intended "loaded" as used in Penal Code section
12031 to reflect the common definition is supported by the court in
People v. Heffner (1977) 70 Cal.App.3d 643, 650 [139 Cal.Rptr. 45],
which reached the same conclusion …
The holding of People v. Clark applies to all types of firearms, not just shotguns.


There remains a lack of clarity whether a detachable magazine with rounds in the magazine inserted into the magazine well of a firearm is loaded as this may constitute a loaded firearm However, People v. Clark makes it very clear that loaded magazines in the same case or on a person's belt but not in the magazine well do not constitute a loaded firearm. Loaded magazines in a buttstock like the SU-16CA but an empty chamber and magazine well would not constitute a loaded firearm.

There are uncommon exceptions in California law that state that a loaded magazine in the same area as an unloaded firearm constitutes a loaded firearm. Those exceptions are outlined below. Those alternate definitions also help prove the rule that the definition of loaded firearm requires rounds in the chamber or rounds in a magazine in a firing position directly attached to the action.

Recent Law Enforcement Training Materials
Some agencies are releasing materials their officers regarding Unloaded Open Carry which address the concept of loaded.

San Diego Police Department
PC § 12031(g) – Statutory Definition of “Loaded”
A firearm is deemed to be loaded when there is an unexpended
shell ... in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm. PC §
12031(g). Legislative history: The Legislature’s use of the phrase
“attached in any manner” to the firearm was intended to encompass
a situation where a shell or cartridge might be attached to a
firearm or “loaded” for firing by some unconventional method.
The phrase does not demonstrate a clear Legislative intent to deem
a firearm loaded no matter how a shell is attached to a firearm,
even when shells are placed in a separate storage compartment at
the rear of a shotgun’s stock. People v. Clark, 45 Cal. App. 4th
1147 (1996).

Case Law Definition of “Loaded” = Ready for Firing
For purposes of PC § 12031, a firearm is loaded when a shell or
cartridge has been placed into a position from which it can be
fired. A firearm is not loaded if the shell or cartridge is stored
elsewhere and not yet placed in a firing position. People v.
Clark, 45 Cal. App. 4th 1147, 1153 (1996).
Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office
When is a firearm considered "Loaded"?
The short answer is that it depends on the circumstances.
Ordinarily, a firearm is loaded if the ammunition is placed into
the weapon in a manner that it could be fired. If the suspect is
being charged with carrying the firearm with the intent to commit
a felony (12023 PC), then a special definition of "loaded"
applies. The firearm is considered "loaded" if the weapon, and
ammunition capable of being fired in the weapon, are in the
immediate possession of the subject (12001(j) PC).
Penal Code §
171e provides a similar definition of "loaded" for firearms
carried in the state capitol or offices (171c PC), and in the
residences of designated elected officials (171d PC). Deputies
should be familiar with this special definition, and be careful
not to apply it to circumstances not involving a violation of
sections 171c, 171d, or 12023.

The majority of offenses involving the carrying of a loaded weapon
fall under 12031 PC. Section 12031(g) defines a weapon as being
loaded when the ammunition is in, or attached to, the firearm. It
specifically provides that a weapon is loaded if there is
ammunition in the firing chamber, magazine or clip. The California
Court of Appeal considered the question of when a weapon is loaded
in the case of People v. Harvey Lee Clark (45 Cal App. 4th 1147).
The defendant had a single-shot shotgun which had no shell in the
chamber. It had a buttstock shell holder which held live rounds.
The court clarified the "attached to" language of 12031(g) holding
that the weapon was unloaded since the rounds could not be fired
from the buttstock holder.
Similar documents have been issued by the Orange County Sheriff's Office, CPOA and Los Angeles District Attorney's Office.

Ammunition or Loaded Magazines in locked containers
Ammunition may be carried in the same container as the gun – loose ammunition or ammunition in ammo boxes does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

You may transport loaded magazines and speed loaders, so long as they are not inserted into the magazine well or cylinder of the firearm. That does not make a gun loaded, because the ammunition carried that way is NOT “placed into a position from which it can be fired”.

A loaded magazine is not the same as a loaded weapon, and possession of a weapon and a loaded magazine for that weapon does not, necessarily, mean you have a loaded weapon.

Anyone who asserts something contrary to the above 3 points is simply wrong. That does not mean you cannot be arrested by uninformed or badly trained law enforcement officer, or charged with the crime of carrying a loaded weapon by an uninformed or politically motivated prosecutor. It does mean that, if it goes to court and you have good representation, the prosecution should lose on the law. There are certain exceptions to this outlined below.

Your comfort level may lead you to do more than the law requires. Please also see Transport Restriction for Handguns for some important additional notes on transporting handguns in California.

"Prohibited Area"
The definition of "prohibited area" generally turns on whether the municipal or county code in that area prohibits the discharge of a firearm. Additional, Penal Code 374c makes shooting from any public road illegal.

Rare Exceptions to Firearm Not Loaded
There are rare exceptions to the rule of "ammunition in firing position" that do define a firearm as loaded when other factors are present.

12001(j) only applies to 12023 (carry with intent to commit a felony).

12001 (j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed
to be "loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended
ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are
in the immediate possession of the same person.

12023. (a) Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent
to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action.
171e only applies inside the State Capitol, legislative offices, office of the Governor, Governor’s residence, etc.

171c. Any person, except…, or a person holding a valid license to
carry the firearm pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section 12050)
of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4, who brings a loaded firearm into,
or possesses a loaded firearm within, the State Capitol, any
legislative office, any office of the Governor or other
constitutional officer, or any hearing room in which any committee
of the Senate or Assembly is conducting a hearing, or upon the grounds
of the State Capitol, which is bounded by 10th, L, 15th, and
N Streets in the City of Sacramento,

171d. Any person, … shall be punished by imprisonment in a county
jail for not more than one year, by fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by
imprisonment in the state prison, if he or she does any of the following:
(a) Brings a loaded firearm into, or possesses a loaded firearm
within, the Governor's Mansion, or any other residence of the Governor,
the residence of any other constitutional officer, or the residence of
any Member of the Legislature.
(b) Brings a loaded firearm upon, or possesses a loaded firearm
upon, the grounds of the Governor's Mansion or any other residence of
the Governor, the residence of any other constitutional officer, or
the residence of any Member of the Legislature.

171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of
Sections 171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended
ammunition capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the
immediate possession of the same person.
Note that these definitions say nothing about magazines, only firearm and ammunition.

The Fish and Game Code has a different definition:

2006. It is unlawful to possess a loaded rifle or shotgun in any
vehicle or conveyance or its attachments which is standing on or along
or is being driven on or along any public highway or other way open to
the public.
A rifle or shotgun shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell
in the firing chamber but not when the only cartridges or shells
are in the magazine.
There is a sentence enhancement for carrying concealed in PC 12025(b)(6)

12025. (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he
or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or
her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm
capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section
is punishable, as follows:

(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment
if both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of
being concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition
capable of being discharged from that firearm are either in
the immediate possession of the person or readily accessible to
that person, or the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person is loaded as defined in subdivision
(g) of Section 12031.
(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice pursuant
to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the registered
owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person.
(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to (6),
inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year,
by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that
imprisonment and fine.
So, if you either have a conventionally ‘loaded’ concealed weapon, or have the concealed weapon and ammunition for it, AND the weapon is not registered to you, you may get state prison instead of county jail.

There is a sentence enhancement for having a weapon and having armor-piercing ammunition:

12022.2. (a) Any person who, while armed with a firearm in the
commission or attempted commission of any felony, has in his or her
immediate possession ammunition for the firearm designed primarily
to penetrate metal or armor, shall upon conviction of that felony or
attempted felony, in addition and consecutive to the punishment
prescribed for the felony or attempted felony, be punished by an
additional term of 3, 4, or 10 years.
There is a sentence enhancement for those who commit defined street gang crimes and have both a weapon and a detachable magazine for it – whether or not there is ammunition and whether the weapon is loaded or unloaded (apparently in the 12031(g) sense):
 
Continued:

12021.5. (a) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm
on his or her person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or
attempted commission of any street gang crimes described in subdivision
(a) or (b) of Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony
or attempted felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment
in the state prison for one, two, or three years in the court's
discretion. The court shall impose the middle term unless there are
circumstances in aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the
reasons for its enhancement choice on the record at the time of sentence.
(b) Every person who carries a loaded or unloaded firearm together
with a detachable shotgun magazine, a detachable pistol magazine,
a detachable magazine, or a belt-feeding device on his or her
person, or in a vehicle, during the commission or attempted commission
of any street gang crimes described in subdivision (a) or (b) of
Section 186.22, shall, upon conviction of the felony or attempted
felony, be punished by an additional term of imprisonment in the state
prison for two, three, or four years in the court's discretion. The
court shall impose the middle term unless there are circumstances in
aggravation or mitigation. The court shall state the reasons for its
enhancement choice on the record at the time of sentence.
Health and Safety Code 11370 and 11550 refer to a loaded firearm, but do not define loaded (see People v Clark notes above).

Also possession of a firearm and the ammunition for it at a gun show is illegal, unless you are a law enforcement officer, guard, or vendor:

12071.4. (a) This section shall be known, and may be cited as, the
Gun Show Enforcement and Security Act of 2000.

(g) No person at a gun show or event, other than security personnel
or sworn peace officers, shall possess at the same time both a
firearm and ammunition that is designed to be fired in the
firearm. Vendors having those items at the show for sale or
exhibition are exempt from this prohibition...

(l) Unless otherwise specified, a first violation of this section is
an infraction. Any second or subsequent violation is a misdemeanor.
Any person who commits an act which he or she knows to be a violation
of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor for a first offense.
 
Thanks for all the great responses.

A couple of details. The bike is a bmw r12oo gs adventure, with locking aluminum panniers (side and top bags). I'll also have a tank bag, that straps to the gas tank. The gun would either sit in the panniers or tank bag, depending on the situation. The tankbag is removable and I could carry it with me when off the bike.

It's obvious I have to do a heck of a lot more research. NC has reciprocity with each State (other than California) on my trip and I had assumed I could keep a loaded weapon at my campsite since I hold a valid NC ccw. Obviously this isn't automatically the case, especially since I would like to camp primarily at State and Federal parks.

The reason for taking the 45 Commander, is it's light, concealable and well, a 45. I could bring a Performance Center SS 357 revolver. It would probably be a great campsite gun, but not exactly concealable! Though I think it could convince a bear to choose potential snacks with greater care.

I've definitely decided I won't carry on my person while on the bike.

Thanks for the great responses!
 
CA Laws.

Zoogster - thanks for clearing up the CA FUD, I was on my way but you beat me to it, and with much greater detail!
 
Seriously though, when I carry while riding, it has always been carried in a horizontal shoulder holster. If I stop anywhere (ie gas station), the jacket gets unzipped far enough that I can easily reach it, but it's not visible. I keep my wallet and cell in the inside jacket pockets next to it, so I have to unzip for them anyway.

I'm sure it's possible to land on it when I carry that way, but it sure seems highly unlikely. Seems like most motorcycle accidents I've seen/heard of, people land on butt, hip, stomach, back, hands, elbows, knees, or some combination of those. Not their armpits.

As far as retention, even if the retention strap broke from an impact (which is possible), my jacket is pretty elasticized at the waist, so I really don't see it finding its way out of my jacket if it somehow got loose

I would certainly not carry on a waist or hip. Nor would I carry anything that wasn't drop safe.

In terms of safety, I would carry for a trip like that. I've spent a lot of nights in the woods in campgrounds and in the back country, and except for one sole night in my 28 years of camping, I've never had any reason to need a firearm, but that one night I was quite thankful to have it, and it serves as a reminder to me the rest of the time to carry as long as there are mean/evil people in the world.



I do the same thing. I have had too many potential situations while riding Not to carry.
 
FWIW, I've always believed that the most dangerous times for any traveler were (1) when refueling at gas stations, (2) when stopping/resting at a rest area, and (3) in any campground. I'd opine that you should adopt a strategy that will afford you the greatest opportunity to defend yourself in those settings, within the bounds of the law.

BTW, I ride a BMW R1200ST. I think there are a number of ways to safely carry while riding.
 
Since I'm planning on using State Parks...

The biggest problem seems to be the inability to carry at many state parks, even with a NC permit. NC won't even let you do it. I mean, I would want to have the weapon available at the campsite in AL, TX, NM, NV, CA, and others, instead of in some cases, locked up tight and unloaded in the side cases of the bike.

I haven't decided for sure yet, but I'll probably leave it at home. Not gonna break gun laws.
 
CA recognizes that you as a visitor to the state can have a loaded, unregistered, ready to use, gun (hand or long) in your home for use in defense of yourself and others against attack and felonious crimes.... and recognizes that campsites, hotels, and other places are your home.

That's a LOT better than many states.

Many parks have explicit anti-gun rules... but in CA the "campsite=home" rule trumps the "no guns" rule ONCE YOU ARE CAMPING.
 
I won't be carrying the gun while riding, because in the event of a crash it would likely hurt me and there is always the potential I could lose control of the weapon but mainly I can't see needing it when riding or getting at it fast enough to make a difference.

I think that this is a very poor assumption.
 
I've been in at least one situation where I would have really, really appreciated having a loaded gun on me while riding. I had the gun with me, but it was tucked away so I would be "safer."
 
Tank bag and full face helmet

I used to do lots of motorcycle touring. I thought a 1911 was too big, so I carried a J frame.
A small tank bag is ideal to carry a pistol. You can take it with you when shopping or touring.
Another option when off your bike is putting the pistol in your helmet, either inside a glove or under a large bandana.
Carrying a helmet off your bike is inconspicuous and gives you a chance to change to pocket carry when your away from people.
 
First, Zoogster, thank you for reminding folks just how complicated some of the CA laws are.

I usually carry in a shoulder holster but sometimes use fanny pack when riding. I'm not comfortable leaving the pistol on the bike given that Harley hard bags are stolen pretty frequently.

Before I had a carry permit here, I would put the pistol and empty magazines in a locked container. Sometimes the ammo would go in it, too. My interpretation of the law is that any locked container will work, so technically locking the two zippers together on the fanny pack should be enough. Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer and have never been pulled over with firearms.

Finally, I must say I'm a bit envious of your trip! ;-)
 
I have camped all over, although not in a tent lately. I've never felt threatened while in a campground. However, I always take a firearm. Sometimes I worry more about getting it lost or stolen, than worry about my safety, but overall, someday, you may need it.
It may not be legal in State Parks, so discretion is the word.
 
CA recognizes that you as a visitor to the state can have a loaded, unregistered, ready to use, gun (hand or long) in your home for use in defense of yourself and others against attack and felonious crimes.... and recognizes that campsites, hotels, and other places are your home.
:scrutiny:

So, lessee now......

A cop pulls you over for whatever.....

You jump off your bike and hastily pitch tent......

Then you smile and say.......

"Hello officer. Do you have a warrant to search my home?"



:cool:
 
in CA the "campsite=home" rule trumps the "no guns" rule ONCE YOU ARE CAMPING.

Didn't know that. Do you have an official source I can cite? I do a lot of camping and would like to have that in writing just in case...
 
double check on carry laws cause the change all the time. I think they changed the state park carry law again.
 
Check Nebraska's laws if you are passing through. I don't believe they have reciprocity with any other state.

I'd check all the state's laws.
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B yond, I thought gun control was the use of both hands.
 
I carry on the bike always (except kali). It was mentioned, your highest exposure will be rest stops, gas stations etc. You will not be given a "timeout" to gather your gun. The only time I've had to put my hand on my gun was at a rest stop in NM & it was not even dark yet. A good leather holster properly positioned is NOT a bigger threat to my safety than being unarmed IMHO. The suggestion of a smaller bug for pocket carry when you need/want to be stealthy is a good one. Concealed means concealed. There are no questions or worries about interpretations of the law if the subject doesn't come up.

I had another situation I think is worth mentioning. I pulled up to fuel the bike just after dark in a nice area. I checked out the parking lot, all was quiet. I stepped off the bike began fueling & a carload of "gang looking" 18-22 yr old kids pulled up & parked off to the side of the store. Two stayed in the running car, two walked over to me & the bike one in front of the bike the other came around the other side of the pump at the back of the bike. "Nice bike, how much did it cost?" from the one at the front of the bike as the one at the rear got closer. By then I was putting the nozzle up, when I turned he spotted the Sig on my belt (jacket unzipped) & they decided it was time to go. My point is, you can go from a safe environment to being at risk very quickly on a bike. There are no doors to lock.
 
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