Massad Ayoob on call the cops

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Not To Pass Judgement...

But the instructor I had for concealed carry classes, who currently serves as a full time sheriff's deputy around here, and teaches police officers from local smaller city departments has an opinion on him.

This guy is a former DEA agent who worked Miami, and met Massad when he came to visit their unit. The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.

Is this story true? I have no idea, I wasn't there, so it's not a first hand experience I can share on him. But, I do trust this instructor's word, and I've never been lied to by him on any other matter, and I can't see any reason he would have lied about this incident. I've known this instructor for years, and he is one of the few men I know who I can take his word as his bond.
 
This guy is a former DEA agent who worked Miami, and met Massad when he came to visit their unit. The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.
which is probably exactly where he should be if he is not a member of the raid team.
 
Ayoob gives a lot of legal advice for a man without a law degree or a license to practice law in any American jurisdiction.

Well he meets whatever the requirements are to regularly be enrolled in court cases as an 'expert witness', and his LFI course"Judicious Use of Deadly Force" is reputed to be the best in the country so I suspect he might know what he's talking about on occasion.

But yes, he's a marketer too, selling his books etc.
 
I think worrying about if the gun or ammo you have is "scary" is out there though,

Well, anything is possible. Read about the Harold Fish case.

Now, Fish may have had lots of other things stacked against him but it's also true that the prosecutor made a big deal out of the "10mm killer" angle.
 
Duke-

He's a cop, not a lawyer, but he probably has more experience in this field than ANYONE else. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massad_Ayoob

When I consulted a lawyer about carrying, I told him if there was ever any doubt, to call Ayoob. He said that he would have done so anyway, and has received training from him before, both legal and tactical.

Read ALL of his books, starting with "In the Gravest Extreme". He backs up ALL of his theories and strategies with case law and experience.
 
I found the videos interesting, never having heard him speak before. He did misspeak about "shall issue" in the first one - the term, in popular parlance, for discretionary permits - i.e., only with the approval of the chief LEO - is "may issue."

stickhauler said:
This guy is a former DEA agent who worked Miami, and met Massad when he came to visit their unit. The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.
I find it difficult to believe that they would let him actually participate in the raid. That is very likely where they told him to sit until it was over.
 
Seriously, if your are not a member of the local police force or ANY force, what gives anyone the legal right to participate in the potential death of somebody else.

To me, it turns from a police action to 'hunting' another person for reasons cited above.
 
This guy is a former DEA agent who worked Miami, and met Massad when he came to visit their unit. The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.

Why on God's green Earth would ANYONE - regardless of expertise - be asked, expected or even allowed to participate in any sort of police action if they were not an official part of the department(s) conducting the action? The suggestion is nothing short of stupid.
 
which is probably exactly where he should be if he is not a member of the raid team

Your exactly right, if he has not trained with that team for entries and raids, then "if" the story is true, it was negligent of them to invite him, and he was right to stay out of their way.

"Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" looks like to me.
 
BCCL: "Your exactly right, if he has not trained with that team for entries and raids, then "if" the story is true, it was negligent of them to invite him, and he was right to stay out of their way. "Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't" looks like to me."

To me, too. I believe in being fair, and if the facts are as described, Ayoob was put into an impossible position. He has no law enforcement authority, yet he is to be involved in the fray? Crazy. If I allowed myself to be put into that position, I'd sit out the raid, too. Anything else would be ... unsound.

I've had fights break out right in front of me among clients and others. I sat and did nothing. A few ignorant bystanders later privately criticized that, and were strongly corrected by my clients, who knew the score.
 
Imagine if Ayoob had gone in on the raid and *something* happened? It could well ruin him and the agent in charge. And for what? Some bravado? Hearing that he can exercise good judgement like staying in the car improves my opinion of him.
 
I've taken his LFI-1 class, and based on my training and experience as a lawyer, it sure seemed to me that he has a solid understanding of how the legal system works, trial strategy, the presentation of evidence in a trial, jury psychology and legal argument -- certainly at least in the "use of force" context. Those are things he effectively teaches in his classes that I haven't seen adequately addressed in others I've taken.
 
The unit just happened to be going on a raid that day, and invited him along. According to my instructor, he talked a good game en-route to the raid, but for some reason couldn't be pried out of the backseat of their vehicle upon arrival at the scene of the raid.
First of all, there's no way he would be allowed to participate in a raid with federal LEOs unless he was a federal LEO. I can't imagine a federal agent trying to talk someone outside their agency into participating in a raid.

Second, as mentioned, not having trained with the team would have made participating a really bad idea.

Third, had anything gone wrong, he would not have had the legal backing of the DEA since he's not a DEA agent. That's a big issue. LEOs know that if something goes wrong their department will provide them with legal assistance.

Assuming the story is true, which I kind of doubt, he did exactly the right thing.
 
I would not want anyone clearing rooms with me who I have not trained with and learned to trust. A real possible combat situation with live rounds is a bad place to learn how someone operates for the first time. I don't care how much praise and reputation someone has received, if I haven't trained with them, I'm not going into combat with them.

And as others have said, Ayoob would have no legal authority to be on the raid anyways, so it's a non-issue. No authority=you don't go.
 
in the first couple of seconds of part II he talks about open carry and frightened citizens calling 911
"...the dispatchers can't just tell them 'well hey it's legal to carry a gun'..."

I say why not? This makes me think of the 911 call not to long ago from a lady at a McDonalds that didn't get her Chicken McNuggets. When she called the first 2 times she was informed that there was no crime and the 3rd time they sent out a a patrol car to issue her a ticket for abusing 911. Why not treat gun calls this way? We aren't criminals are we? Why should we be treated as a suspect because some frightened civilian doesn't know the law?
 
Any of you guys know that Massad Ayoob is a member here at THR? I have seen him post here before. I have read lot of interesting things about him. I want to go buy some of his books. Many make the claim he is the legal guru of the gun world. I suppose once you get famous people will start to examine you with a fine tooth comb and see what dirt they can get on you. From all the THR discussions I have seen and people trying to debunk the man, he seems to come out on top and hold his ground. I bet if this gets too serious he may even come on here and post. Any thread with the name Ayoob, seems to have at least one post from the guy.
 
First of all, the guy's got my respect and admiration. I've read just about everything he's put out and as someone said before, I'll continue to read and re-read what he writes. He knows his stuff and has my support.
By the way, I've gotta add a +1 to SpecialKalltheway just above me! I don't know why a cop will get sent out on something like dialing 911 about Chicken Nuggets and ticket the idiot but they don't do the same thing about us?!?
 
I'm pretty sure Mr. Ayoob is also a lawyer. I only know what little I've heard.

As far as running the man down for staying in the squad car, if in fact that even even happened, if he went on that raid, and if he fired a shot, and if that shot hit someone, there is a good chance he would not have "peace officer" status or other indemnification in that jurisdiction. Mr. Ayoob would be a true bonehead to do that.
 
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