Nothing but Gouging

We just had probably the longest general election in history...two years in duration. The general consensus after the 2006 midterm election was more defeat for conservatism in 2008. The two choices for the "opposition" party all along were always known to be virulent anti-gunners. So everyone waited until AFTER the last election to start buying ammo and guns? "A wise man sees danger coming and prepares for it." It's like all the unprepared people here in South Florida who watch non-stop TV reports for 10 days of an impending hurricane and do nothing. Then you see the angry multitude standing in line the next day waiting for ice and gasoline rhetorically asking "Where's FEMA at?!?"

The angry folks here who for whatever reason didn't prepare are now berating their fellows that did. You complain of price gouging. You think your distributors and retailers are paying the same price for their inventory as before? As has been said here a thousand times already it's supply and demand. I would like to see these same indignant people sell their cars or houses or used guns for less than they are worth. "Oh I don't think my house is worth $200,000. I only paid $100,000 so that's what I'll sell it for."

Man am I glad some of the posters here aren't running Wal-Mart, or for that matter the Grocery Big Box stores.

pith43 wrote:

It really makes no difference what anybody else thinks, if the buyer thinks it's worth it.... it's worth it.

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I'm getting really tired of the box-top capitalism lessons. Thanks for that. That's about as helpful as someone saying, "That's your opinion dude."

Guess what? The buyer's opinion can be affected by reading boards like these. A snapshot of the market does not allow you to predict what is going to happen to it, partially due to influences like this board...OPINIONS of non-buyers influence the market forces.

I find it unproductive and annoying when someone accuses people of gouging, because that word connotes some immorality or illegality. But it's equally annoying when someone says "I'm so tired of bitching, don't buy the product! This is how capitalism works! There's no place for complaining!" As if complaining doesn't influence the market, and people who complain are "socialists."

You can't really call the gun/ammo prices gouging because they really aren't a survival necessity and are more of a recreational item and I'm sure people will disagree but JMHO. True gouging is when during a hurricane or natural disaster evacuation the gas stations along the evac route raise their prices from 2.00 to 6.00 a gallon or when after the storm the only stores in the area all of a sudden are selling water for 20.00 a case or ice for 10.00 a bag and I've seen this personally here in Florida thats why there are anti gouging laws on the books. I would like to add to my gun collection as much as anybody but anyone who says that they absolutely need a new ak or ar-15 right now is full of crap and if they choose to pay these prices oh well boo hoo for them.

True gouging is when during a hurricane or natural disaster evacuation the gas stations along the evac route raise their prices from 2.00 to 6.00 a gallon or when after the storm the only stores in the area all of a sudden are selling water for 20.00 a case or ice for 10.00 a bag and I've seen this personally here in Florida thats why there are anti gouging laws on the books.

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See my earlier post for why this isn't immoral, even if you insist on calling it gouging.

True gouging is when during a hurricane or natural disaster evacuation the gas stations along the evac route raise their prices from 2.00 to 6.00 a gallon or when after the storm the only stores in the area all of a sudden are selling water for 20.00 a case or ice for 10.00 a bag and I've seen this personally here in Florida thats why there are anti gouging laws on the books.

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Anti-gouging laws only ensure shortages. Would you rather have no gas than $6 gas? If the going rate is $6 then people will go out of their normal course of business to bring gasoline to the area, ensuring an adequate supply. No one is going to bring extra gas for the regular price, because they won't be able to do it at a profit. Charity only goes so far.

Guess what? The buyer's opinion can be affected by reading boards like these.

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I don't think so at all. First of all, even if all the people on this board agreed on anything, the thought of it changing the minds of millions of buyers, especially in panic mode, is the height of arrogance. I'd say that the majority of people on this board think that the bitching and moaning is nothing more than a childish temper tantrum that affects the supply / demand cycle not in the least... but that won't change anyones mind. If you can't even affect the mindset of our own little microcosm, how could one even dream of affecting a world economy?

OPINIONS of non-buyers influence the market forces.

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Not if there are still buyers. If their are 1,000 people at a car auction, and only two of them are buyers, it doesn't matter what the other 998 people think or do, the fair market price for that car on that day is set by the two buyers. You can try and talk them out of running the price up, but what you really want is for them to back the price down to where You can buy. If they are still willing to buy at a higher level, why in the world would they want to let everyone else back in?

But it's equally annoying when someone says "I'm so tired of bitching, don't buy the product! This is how capitalism works! There's no place for complaining!" As if complaining doesn't influence the market, and people who complain are "socialists."

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People can and will complain all they want. If they want some kind of price capping or other intervention, then that makes them socialist. If they don't want intervention, but think that bitching changes something, then I think thats naive. If they don't want intervention and don't think that bitching will change anything, but still do,...I gues that just makes them .... whiners...

I find it unproductive and annoying

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Me too

By the way, I vote we keep this as the official price gouging thread, for no other reason than to not keep repeating ouselves, and to cut down on the numerous threads relating to the subject.

Just a thought..

AKs... AKs started going up before a potential ban. Three years ago, kits could be had for $70 each, and you could build an AK for under $100. THATS the reason why there were fully built WASRs for $200. It was legal to import plasma cut receiver rifles and rebuild them, so lots of companies were doing it. There were literally pallet loads of these things, and they were cheap.

NOW, there are no pallet loads. The kits were all pretty much bought up a year ago... long before Obamamania. There are still plenty of unbuilt kits from private sellers, but there are no more $200 centerfire specials and there are never going to be again! Now, kits coming in have both the receiver AND the barrel cut, and there are very few of those coming in. That makes the $300 WASR of two years ago about a $600 rifle now.... with our without an AWB. I suspect that even as time goes buy, the $500-600 WASRs will be rebuilt into top shelf guns.

There IS a limit to the number communist era AKs, and they won't be going back down to $300... ever. You want a modern variant, get a Saiga and convert.

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Good post. I see your point, and it definitely makes sense. There was also a limit to the amount of SKS rifles, and there's a limit to the amount of Mosin-Nagant rifles as well. There was a time when you could go to a gun show and by as many cosmoline-covered SKS's as you wanted for $75 each. We're never going to see that again. Mosins will probably go up in price after awhile, although as a bolt gun I'm assuming they won't be under the pressure that semi-auto "assault" rifles are frequently under.

Still, the insane demand has driven up prices. We'll never see the $200 WASR again, but prices will come down if the panic fades. If the market gets flooded with used AKs and not many buyers for them, prices will naturally fall.

Everyone pretty much said what I think. I'm tired of the socialists bitching about gouging as well. If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have no right to influence what 2 consenting individuals in a business deal are willing to do. Like someone else said, is that $500 box of ammo not worth your life? Those who are sitting out are risking that ammo will come down someday. What if it never does?

AKs... AKs started going up before a potential ban. Three years ago, kits could be had for $70 each, and you could build an AK for under $100. THATS the reason why there were fully built WASRs for $200. It was legal to import plasma cut receiver rifles and rebuild them, so lots of companies were doing it. There were literally pallet loads of these things, and they were cheap.

NOW, there are no pallet loads. The kits were all pretty much bought up a year ago... long before Obamamania. There are still plenty of unbuilt kits from private sellers, but there are no more $200 centerfire specials and there are never going to be again! Now, kits coming in have both the receiver AND the barrel cut, and there are very few of those coming in. That makes the $300 WASR of two years ago about a $600 rifle now.... with our without an AWB. I suspect that even as time goes buy, the $500-600 WASRs will be rebuilt into top shelf guns.

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Err, wot? I'm not that big into AKs, but To The Best of My Knowledge, the WASRs are all imported into this country in a low-cap form, given a new barrel and US parts (Tapco trigger, etc), and then they cut out the magwell to accept hi-cap mags. The receiver/trunnion are still the original Romanian parts.

The reason prices have gone up is simply because demand has skyrocketed. It doesn't cost them any more today to bring in WASRs and convert them than it did a year or two ago. But if you can only bring in X number of rifles per month, it makes no business sense whatsoever to sell them at half the value at which your number sold per month would equal X. Production limits and demand levels set the manufacturer/distributor pricing.

Personally, what I have seen from those I know in real life and those who I know fairly well online is that those who are complaining the most about "price gouging" are those who showed abysmal market awareness in spite of pre-election warnings and post election reports and simply got caught left with insufficient amounts of ammo...sort of like people who get "surprised" by hurricanes and don't expect any problems in spite of the fact of not doing much in the way of preparation.

Funny thing is, many reloaders thought they would be immune to the problems of high ammo prices because they can reload so cheaply, LOL.

So in a now regular event, yet another person comes forward who has finally pulled his/her head out of the sand because their supply has run low and went out into the world and find that it has changed.

What truly amazes me is that I see folks posting about not having enough ammo and some are those who have posted in the past about having supplies on hand to handle zombies and TEOTWAWKI. Apparently, zombies and TEOTWAWKI require about 200 rounds.

{all said a bit tongue and cheek I fully realize that not everyone was in a position financially to stock up in the years preceding the Nov 2008 elections}

At some point in time the market will be flooded with overpriced AK and AR style weapons and the prices should come down. It's the same old game, not if but when. When it does there will be a many a person stuck with overpriced weapons. It will be just like the housing market.

It's not price gouging if you don't have to buy it.

Gasoline, food, water, electricity - those are "essential goods or materials" in this day and age, which is why there are laws against real gouging.

Guns and ammo, though? I would imagine that the people who have a legtimate reliance on these items already has plenty of both.

For those complaining, I am posting the Florida price gouging law:

2. The amount charged grossly exceeds the average price at which the same or similar commodity was readily obtainable in the trade area during the 30 days immediately prior to a declaration of a state of emergency, and the increase in the amount charged is not attributable to additional costs incurred in connection with the rental or sale of the commodity or rental or lease of any dwelling unit or self-storage facility, or national or international market trends.

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Note that it requires three things: A declared state of emergency, that the price increase grossly exceeds the average price over the last 30 days, and is not in connection with national or international price trends. So, not gouging.

+1 Chuckusaret The bubble will burst. Let's help it along by only buying reasonably priced guns and ammo. I'm taking this as an opportunity to buy those neglected categories in my collection like the Puma M92 .45 Colt I put on layaway. Just made sure I bought a couple of reasonably priced boxes of ammo first! Ammo first then gun? It's truly whacked but will return to normal.

ARlover, I am with you. I refuse to pay the outrageous asking prices the local gun stores are asking for their products and services. I no longer use any of their services. If I can buy what I want at a reasonable price on the net I will, if not I go without. I am not rich but I am not poor and I don't intend to make some gun store owner rich. I found using the gun manufacturer for repair services is cheaper in the long run and less trouble than the locals.

True gouging is when during a hurricane or natural disaster evacuation the gas stations along the evac route raise their prices from 2.00 to 6.00 a gallon or when after the storm the only stores in the area all of a sudden are selling water for 20.00 a case or ice for 10.00 a bag and I've seen this personally here in Florida thats why there are anti gouging laws on the books.

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See my earlier post for why this isn't immoral, even if you insist on calling it gouging.

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Not only is it not IMmoral to do so, it is quite moral and beneficial to society. The anti-gouging laws prevent the water from being sold at its temporary market price. That means there's a quick run and they are gone. Some people really needed water during the run, and some didn't really need it to survive, but bought some anyway as they normally would do in their daily lives. Had the price been set by the market, then only the people who really needed the water to survive would have shelled out that much for it, leaving more water for the other people who haven't made it to the market yet, who need the water to survive. In any event, after the run, there's no more water. Then the people who need water to survive and are more than willing to pay $10/gallon have NO ONE to sell it to them, all because the would-be abnormal sellers don't want to get fined for so-called "gouging" and the normal marketplaces are fresh out. Thusly, "anti-gouging" laws CAUSE PEOPLE TO DIE! Seriously, the anti-gouging laws are really saying this in essence: "We the legislature (and the people who support such laws) would rather some people DIE OF THIRST than allow the sellers to temporarily mark up their product to the market value, even when plenty of people are perfectly willing to pay the higher price." It don't get much stupider than that.

Gouging. No

People trying to rip others off, Yes

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It's not a ripoff if the buyer gets what he pays for.

We need to watch our definitions people

You are defining something that i do not believe is anywhere near as simple a situation as you seem to think.

"It's not a ripoff if the buyer gets what he pays for."

Example: Little old lady (lets say 86 yo) goes into new car dealership to buy a new $20k msrp auto. A slick salesman talks her into paying $40k for it (a $20k msrp vehicle). By your definition she didn't get ripped off. I say she did, even though she "got what she paid for". Upon reflection, i think you will find that Christianity, and probably every other religion in the world would also say that she DID get ripped off. Heck, even atheists with any kind of morals would say she got ripped off.

Technically speaking, transactions have to be between "knowledgeable, stress-free, individuals that are not withholding important information or trying to intentionally mislead the other party to be a "fair" transaction. It has been a couple decades since I had business law, but that is pretty close to the actual legal intent.

So what is my real point? What if people who are making money off this "panic buying" are actually doing things to perpetuate this panic mentality. In other words, they are manipulating the market, and we don't really have a free and "honest" market. Then customers would be "getting ripped off".

If you don't think this possible, do some research on the California electric power "shortages" from a few years ago. Also, do some research on the recent oil/gas price hikes. These were "NOT" caused by free market conditions. They were caused, in large part, by market manipulations. And just follow the money trail back to who profited the most in those situations and you can get a good idea of who was doing at least some of the manipulating.

If we really had completely "free markets" (meaning you would let the rich and powerful manipulate them any way they wanted), JD Rockefeller would have gained control of the entire country around 75 years ago. Study a little history if you don't believe me.

Okay, I'll bite again. I bought a Wasr over a year ago for $375. I overpaid then but it met the conditions I was after so I was happy to get it. I just sold it today for $550. Did I rip the guy off? That is the going rate of a wasr today. Now, if I held on to it in the hopes that I could get more money in the future and the market price dropped to $200, would you be willing to pay me more than $200 to help offset my loss? I didn't think so.

Example: Little old lady (lets say 86 yo) goes into new car dealership to buy a new $20k msrp auto. A slick salesman talks her into paying $40k for it (a $20k msrp vehicle). By your definition she didn't get ripped off. I say she did, even though she "got what she paid for".

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OK, here is an example: Last year, my wife and I went shopping to buy her a new car. She drives 40 miles each way to work, and wanted something more fuel efficient than her Ford Explorer Sport Trac (18MPG). WE went to the Toyota dealer, and looked at several cars.

The Prius had a sticker price in the neighborhood of $28K, but the dealer told us that they were selling almost as soon as the dealer prep was done, and he could sell it within days from $35-40K. He said because gas was near $4 a gallon, people were panic buying. IMO, this is not gouging, it is good business. If the dealer had kept his price at $28K, private investors would simply buy them and resell them at $40K anyhow. The market is what it is, and attempting to repeal the law of supply and demand is like trying to repeal the law of gravity. (Which is why alcohol prohibition and the drug war didn't and won't work)

BTW- We got a Corolla. 40mpg, and $25K loaded.

It's not a ripoff if the buyer gets what he pays for.

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This is true but what about edited}CTD and their shenanigans with CProducts magazines,

I explained my terminology, there are a lot of profiteers out there (yes yes this is capitalism and good and all) but I feel there are some that are deceiving these new shooters, some want to make some good profit, others are being ridiculous about it. This could be construed as a case by case deal. This is gonna get chop quoted inst it?

I still want a .410