Admissability of THR comments?

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Two words - "IP spoofing". I believe that this would introduce reasonable doubt. Shucks, I don't believe that ANY digital media should be admissable. It's too easy to fake. Photoshop, audio programs; even analog media can now be spoofed by creating a digital image and re-recording it on an analog media ( audio/video tape, photographic film).
 
Sorry folks, there simply is no room for debate on this topic. It not only can happen, it HAS happened.

WRITTEN comments you post on an online forum can put you in jail.

"Update 6-17-08: Mr. Wong pleaded guilty to a federal charge of threatening over the Internet to pull off a Virginia Tech-style massacre. "
http://legalpublication.blogspot.com/2008/04/calin-chi-wong-threatens-virginia-tech.html

"Calin Wong,20, was charged with making written threats to kill via the computer.

On an Internet site called AR15.com Wong appeared to threaten to re enact the Virginia Tech killings. He said, “I'm soon to the point to re enact the whole event.” "
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_040408_news_oregon_student_weapons_massacre.2f170c46.html

"A 20-year-old man who threatened to carry out a Virginia Tech-style massacre over the Internet will spend about eight months in federal prison after a judge agreed to give him credit for time served Thursday.

Judge Alan Gold imposed a one-year sentence on Calin Chi Wong "
http://www.justnews.com/news/17059419/detail.html
 
Again, this is an example of where the posting ITSELF was the crime. Not an example of where, say, you are involved in a defensive shooting, and your THR remarks are pulled to try to characterize your intent. There's a difference between making a threat or using the internet to commit a sexual crime or a crime of violence, which can be tracked to you because you USED IT to ALLOW someone to find you, and using your unrelated, out of context, unsworn, hearsay, unverifiable commentary made under the cloak of anonymity to convict you three years later.
 
Two words - "IP spoofing". I believe that this would introduce reasonable doubt.

There are any number of circumstances surrounding an internet post that could create reasonable doubt. The issue is what you are going to say when you are called to the stand and an attorney, defense, prosecutor or otherwise, asks: "Mr. rcnixon, are you the author of these posts?"

If you are willing to lie, willing to let your attorney spin a story, and you don't really care whether or not you come off as truthful, you will probably be okay in many circumstances.

If you do care about telling the truth, and your credibility actually matters (to you or others), you may have a problem.
 
You aren't anonymous here. You aren't anonymous anywhere online unless you use some very sophisticated measures to cover your tracks. We have staff members here who can come up with amazing amounts of information from the trail one leaves here.

It's almost part of the search warrant boilerplate language these days to seize computers during an investigation. Your hard drive will provide the trail to everywhere you've been.

If you think you can introduce reasonable doubt that someone got your ID and password and made the incriminating or inflammable posts or the posts that suggest you have a reckless and cavalier attitude towards the use of deadly force, there are other things you must take into consideration.

Everyone has a distinct writing style. Sentence structure, choice of words, common punctuation, spelling or grammatical errors. We use these indicators all the time to catch people here with multiple registration or banned members returning under a new user name. So you're going to have to convince the jury that not only did someone log on from your computer in your home, at a time of day when you were physically present there, but they copied your posting style well enough to fool everyone else.
 
Well how much are you all willing to bet that you'll be able to discredit or explain Internet evidence if it comes to that? Are you that anxious to to roll the die? Remember, you or your attorney can "spin a story", but that doesn't mean that the jury is going to take any notice of it.

mljdeckard said:
...the posting ITSELF was the crime. Not an example of where, say, you are involved in a defensive shooting, and your THR remarks are pulled to try to characterize your intent...
A distinction without a difference.

mljdeckard said:
...There's a difference between making a threat or using the internet to commit a sexual crime or a crime of violence, which can be tracked to you because you USED IT to ALLOW someone to find you, and using your unrelated, out of context, unsworn, hearsay, unverifiable commentary made under the cloak of anonymity to convict you three years later....
[1]But your unrelated, out of context, unsworn, hearsay, unverifiable commentary can be admissible when you are a party. Out of court statements by a party are one exception to the hearsay rule. Hearsay is also admissible to show state of mind. And the "cloak of anonymity" of which you write exists only in your imagination. You can not count on not being identified.

rcnixon said:
...I don't believe that ANY digital media should be admissable....
And that's beside the point. The fact is that it is admissible. I've seen it admitted time and time again.
 
The issue is what you are going to say when you are called to the stand and an attorney, defense, prosecutor or otherwise, asks: ... are you the author of these posts?"

Really think so? Kinda like "are these your fingerprints?" Don't forget forensic evidence.

If you are willing to lie, willing to let your attorney spin a story, and you don't really care whether or not you come off as truthful, you will probably be okay in many circumstances.

More likely you will not. Nothing like adding a perjury conviction.
 
...using your unrelated, out of context, unsworn, hearsay, unverifiable commentary made under the cloak of anonymity to convict you three years later.
If it's unrelated and unverifiable then, of course it's not going to be used against you. That goes without saying. It's the related, and verifiable things that are said that could come back to haunt a person.

As far as anonymity goes, people are far less anonymous on the web than they think.
There's a difference between...
There's a difference, but the question was whether comments posted on the internet are admissable. Clearly if one can be prosecuted for what one posts on the internet when what one posts is a crime, then what one posts must be admissable as evidence.

To say otherwise would be to say that one could be prosecuted for a crime (posting terroristic threats) when the very act of committing the crime (posting on the internet) is inadmissable as evidence. Or it would be saying that what is posted is inadmissable when it's not a crime but admissable when it is a crime. Either way it makes no sense at all.
 
pkoch62 wrote: "My rule of thumb has always been "don't post anything you wouldn't want on the front page of the New York Times with your real name attached to it". Seems to work quite well. "


Sage advice.
 
I don't know about criminal courts, but yes without a doubt internet posts are admissible in civil courts. On anything related, part of the discovery routinly includes quesitons about any public internet disclosure of facts.

You could lie and deny but things won't go well for you if your lie is discovered, even if there was nothing damming to be found.

If in doubt, shut up in public.
 
If you think you can introduce reasonable doubt that someone got your ID and password and made the incriminating or inflammable posts or the posts that suggest you have a reckless and cavalier attitude towards the use of deadly force, there are other things you must take into consideration.

Considering, exclusively, use of deadly force where a criminal prosecution is probable, and there is cause sufficient to seize computers and access records... yes, this is probably true.

In other situations, maybe yes, maybe no.

For instance, I know (anecdotally) of a case wherein a law enforcement officer in a very, very small department and jurisdiction made pretty sweeping and inflammatory statements online regarding persons accused of sexually abusing children. That same officer was subsequently involved in a use of force (not fatal) involving a suspect accused of sexually abusing a child. It was alleged that the officer's conduct was excessive. The subsequent investigations (by IA and a private investigator acting on behalf of the suspect) revealed that the officer may have been posting online under an alias. The information was provided by one of the officer's extended family members who was a convicted sex offender. During a deposition, the officer acknowledged authorship of the posts despite the fact that there was insufficient cause to seize computers or subpoena ISP records. The department was subsequently sued, successfully. He could have simply denied authorship and, from a position of liability, the situation would have likely died. He would, however, have been finished in terms of his credibility with his department and the Court.

And, as I noted earlier, I know (personally) of an officer in a very large urban department whose investigation was attacked based upon the opinions he expressed online. Again, these were done under an alias and from a publicly accessible computer, but information was received that suggested that the officer was the author. It was obvious from the content that the posts were the officer's, but there was no way for the defense to prove it conclusively. Search warrants and seizures were not an option available to the defense. The officer COULD probably have denied authorship successfully, but to do so would have severely damaged his future credibility. He opted not to.

It really depends on the circumstances and severity of the situation. I agree that, if you are posting from your own account, and from your own computer, you will have a very hard time convincing a jury (or anyone else) that you are not responsible for the views expressed.

Insofar as writing style, etc is concerned, I am going to suggest, from the perspective of someone who has tried very, very hard to convince a number of DA's to introduce grammatical hallmarks in letters, emails, etc. as evidence in criminal prosecutions, that there is profoundly little likelihood that such evidence could be used in any way other than to support other evidence. Grammar, sentence structure, etc. might be enough to convince the mods at THR to ban someone, but in a criminal proceeding, where the defense is likely to present to the jury an expert who will juxtapose five indistinguishable posts from five different authors, there had better be something a great deal meatier. I would defy virtually anyone to distinguish my writing from that of my sister, or my wife of 18 years, based solely upon grammar, sentence structure, etc.

All that said, where "admissibility" is concerned, bet on it that if anyone has any inkling that you have posted something relevant to a Court proceeding, that information is likely to make it on the record regardless of whether or not it can be proven.
 
You could lie and deny but things won't go well for you if your lie is discovered, even if there was nothing damming to be found.

Yup. Exactly.
 
JCF said:
Insofar as writing style, etc is concerned, I am going to suggest, from the perspective of someone who has tried very, very hard to convince a number of DA's to introduce grammatical hallmarks in letters, emails, etc. as evidence in criminal prosecutions, that there is profoundly little likelihood that such evidence could be used in any way other than to support other evidence....
This is, in my view, another "maybe yes, maybe no." First, it will depend on the circumstances and personalities involved. Second, it may depend on how distinctive the writing style is. In any case, even if such evidence can be used only to support other evidence, it's still either a bad or good thing, depending on which side of the question you're on.
 
Maybe we should have a disclaimer in our sig lines like:

The above post is not necessarily true nor is it the opinion of the author and is intended for entertainment purposes only.
 
Maybe we should have a disclaimer in our sig lines like:

The above post is not necessarily true nor is it the opinion of the author and is intended for entertainment purposes only.

I like it. :)
 
Archived or copied comments have trouble getting past the "best evidence" rule, which excludes items like photocopies of documents because of difficulty in authentication.
I don't know who told such nonsense about "best evidence," but your assertions are not true. While originals are preferred, and must be used if available, if the originals are not available copies can and often are introduced as evidence.
 
I guess people think they are anonymous and can hide from big brother on the internet. Its very easy to get a court order to obtain all records from the site administrator, the web service, it is carried by, and your own web service. In a second they can trace you down by your own internet connection. They can take your computer and use it against you in court, it takes them minutes to trace you down and get the court order to confiscate your computer.
Theres nothing anonymous about you or anyone else on the internet.
Also several people have been sued, and had charges brought against them in the last few years alone for comments they made on public web sites.
So yes, anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law, this means what you type on the internet also.
 
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Another example of a computer being used against someone. I believe one of the articles I read about that guy Olafson who was arrested by the ATF. His computer, his online reciepts, his own private paperwork, his internet postings, his emails, his membership to websites, and alot more were used as evidence against him, in addition to physical evidence present in his house.
You are not anonymous when surfing the web, you can lie about your identity all you want, when it comes to court if you did lie to obtain membership or to hide your identity on a website it can be used against you also, why you were dishonest to falsely obtain access.
How do you think the best hackers in China are tracked to their own homes or place of business by the powers to be, or the kids who are being paid $30,000 a week by cybercriminals in Russia to create the worst virus's that spread in PCs the world over?
If you are willing to post something on the web be prepared to stand behind it in a court of law, unless you are willing to lose your personal credibility by admitting it was all a bunch of lies and BS.
 
Everything I post is true.

The above post is not necessarily true nor is it necessarily the opinion of the author and is intended for entertainment purposes only.
 
So even if what I post here is not libel, patently false, or outside the posted rules of the forum I could be convicted for saying it?

Statements made online do not constitute a crime, but they can be used as evidence of another crime. Suppose you're arrested for a shooting, and you tell the cop I don't even own a gun. The prosecutor pulls out your THR posts of you listing your collection and posting pictures and targets. Thanks for playing -- see you in 25 years.

Now in reality, it's not the THR posts but the statement you made to the cops about not owning guns that sank you, but the THR posts could be used as evidence.

It's virtual hearsay.

IANAL, but as I understand it, the hearsay rule only applys to evidence that can help you. The prosecution can introduce any of your out-of-court statements he wants. You can't introduce your posts as evidence -- that would be hearsay.

P.S. The hearsay rule in a nutshell is that evidence of out-of-court statements is not admissible if the person who made them can testify the same things in court. The reason the prosecution can use your out-of-court statements is that he can't call you as a witness due to the 5th amendment.
 
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Two words - "IP spoofing". I believe that this would introduce reasonable doubt. Shucks, I don't believe that ANY digital media should be admissable. It's too easy to fake. Photoshop, audio programs; even analog media can now be spoofed by creating a digital image and re-recording it on an analog media ( audio/video tape, photographic film).

I don't think anyone ever just holds up evidence and gets a guilty verdict. The state has to have someone to testify to its authenticity -- the cop who found the murder weapon, the ISP employee who looked up your IP, etc. If it's spoofed then your lawyer should be able to demonstrate that the state doesn't have proof that the evidence came from you.
 
After reading all this I've come to the conclusion
it's best to simply not post much of anything on the net at all.
Especially at gun related sites or politico sites.

So from now on people, don't speak your mind on the net or anywhere.
(1a is effectively gone)...
Don't you dare... EVER discuss 'what if' possibilities about
where the government is heading, or say anything about any political groups.
(Just let them do what they want and you BETTER keep your mouth shut)...
Don't post stuff like what you 'think' could happen.
And don't ever say silly things like:
'My sisters boyfriend beat her up again, man I'd like to kick his butt'.

After all, anything you say can and WILL be used against you in a court of law.
and apparently it's true (for all you nay sayers out there)
BIG BROTHER truly IS watching you.

Hi Big Brother hello.gif
 
This is how child pornographers are caught, you think this is not evidence?An those plying for child sex online. It may very well come back to bite you in the behind. Careful is as careful does, stupid is as stupid does.
 
After reading all this I've come to the conclusion
it's best to simply not post much of anything on the net at all.

That's a pretty extreme conclusion, but I have known people who were reluctant to put anything of substance into email or in writing, for that matter.

The key (in my opinion) is (1) to avoid posting anything that could give the impression that you do not respect the law (or any agreements that you have entered into or intend to enter into); and (2) to avoid discussing any subjects that involve or could involve some kind of litigation (a divorce case, lawsuit, auto or other accident, employment recommendations or decisions, or any even slightly controversial incident involving an altercation or a gun, to mention a few possibilities).

After all, anything you say can and WILL be used against you in a court of law and apparently it's true (for all you nay sayers out there)
BIG BROTHER truly IS watching you.

We'll, maybe for illegal or unlicensed downloads, distribution of pornography. terrorism issues, maybe, "big brother " might enter into the picture.

For most of the other things, including anything I can think of that might relate to the original subject of this thread, "big brother" is not really the issue. The issue is that the posts are electronically indelible and are discoverable. If there is reason to investigate your actions in something--say, a shooting that you believe was entirely justified--one of the places the investigators will most likely look is your hard drive, and wherever the trail leads from there. It isn't Governmental snooping that is the issue, it is the old-fashioned subpoena.

And has had been said, this may lead to the discovery of posts that constitute admissible evidence useful for, or damaging to, one side or another, such as posts that may enter into the establishment of state of mind, or posts that contradict other testimony and are thus injurious to credibility. Or it may lead to other evidence that may not have otherwise been brought to light.

I hope this clarifies the issue somewhat. If any of it is off track, one of the attorneys here can advise as they see fit.
 
Now, a lot of this depends on the evidence rules of the state that you reside in. I disagree with a lot of this.

Athentication is simply proof that the written statement is what it purports to be. That can even be proven by circmstantial evidence. It's just not that hard to prove and can easily be done.

As to admissability, that is another story. It must be relevant and material to prove a fact at issue. On that point another issue arises.

Suppose for example that you posted that in response to multiple attackers on your child, you would open up with your AR/AK and kill everyone in sight regardless of whether they were armed or a threat to your child. Some of you have posted that exactly.

Now, you are involved in a similar shooting where that is what you did. Can your comment be used to show that you acted in accordance with your prior posted statement? Probably not for a variety of reasons.

However, defamation, threats, and admissions of the commission of a crime can be used. Those comments are actionable in and of themselves or are confessions.

The point is don't be stupid and instead be courteous to one another. No harm will be done in most cases.
 
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