Why an AR over a good bolt gun?
- Thread starter wickedsprint
- Start date
- Status
Polar Express
Member
It's a gun people, it doesn't NEED to be practical! Is my jeep with different axles, a cut and welded up frame, and 36" swamper tires practical? No. It's a hobby. Something you enjoy doing does not have to be practical. By the time you pay off the boat, buy all the tackle and bait, is it cheaper to catch your own fish, or go to the local market and buy the freshest fish of your choice? (hint: market is loads better) but the process of FISHING is the fun part.
Now, some folks feel that as a citizenry, we are obligated to be familiar with firearms and their function. I suspect that even the vast majority of those folks don't feel you need to have a particular rifle platform, but just own one, and know how to use it. (this is pure speculation here)
Before the AWB of '94, my dad ( I was too young) did not own one gun that qualified as an AW. Within a month, he owned 3 Mini-14s, a Mak-90 and an SKS. Why? They are fun to shoot, and when you feel that your ability to exercise that option may be in jeopardy, your time line/ priority ranking is adjusted to preserve that ability, right?
I bought my first (and only AR) about 8 years ago. It was built during the AWB of '94-'04, and thus the configuration was limited. After the ban expired, there was no rush to make it the way I wanted, until the political winds changed, and it appeared they might do another AWB. So, I dumped a bunch of $$ and built an M1A, and changed the configuration of my AR. I also loaded up on mags, so if there is another AWB, I'm in a position to be grandfathered and be able to shoot what I want, when I want. Unfortunately, prices have gone up, but I'm kinda ruthless, and patient all at the same time, and was able to do what I wanted for likely the same prices I would have a year ago.
Ammo and supplies are a different story.
But, I've just placed my order for a Dillon, so not only can I shoot now, but my grand kids will be able to shoot as well.
Now, some folks feel that as a citizenry, we are obligated to be familiar with firearms and their function. I suspect that even the vast majority of those folks don't feel you need to have a particular rifle platform, but just own one, and know how to use it. (this is pure speculation here)
Before the AWB of '94, my dad ( I was too young) did not own one gun that qualified as an AW. Within a month, he owned 3 Mini-14s, a Mak-90 and an SKS. Why? They are fun to shoot, and when you feel that your ability to exercise that option may be in jeopardy, your time line/ priority ranking is adjusted to preserve that ability, right?
I bought my first (and only AR) about 8 years ago. It was built during the AWB of '94-'04, and thus the configuration was limited. After the ban expired, there was no rush to make it the way I wanted, until the political winds changed, and it appeared they might do another AWB. So, I dumped a bunch of $$ and built an M1A, and changed the configuration of my AR. I also loaded up on mags, so if there is another AWB, I'm in a position to be grandfathered and be able to shoot what I want, when I want. Unfortunately, prices have gone up, but I'm kinda ruthless, and patient all at the same time, and was able to do what I wanted for likely the same prices I would have a year ago.
Ammo and supplies are a different story.
But, I've just placed my order for a Dillon, so not only can I shoot now, but my grand kids will be able to shoot as well.
Polar Express
Member
oh, and I should add, that I haven't bought one firearm or magazine, or any ammo ever, with the intention of using it as an investment. But I don't blame anyone who has. It's purely speculation.
.... but I don't go fishing to try and sell the fish for a profit either.
.... but I don't go fishing to try and sell the fish for a profit either.
flyboy1788
Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 317
How do you live man?!?!?!
CoRoMo
Member
flyboy1788
Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 317
Nope, please fill me in. I cant believe any self-respecting gun enthusiast doesnt have a bolt-gun. Maybe we should get all of the THR members to donate one dollar and get him a bolt gun or an AR so he can finally experience true joy. Once he acquires one, the skies will become bluer, grass will become greener, sunsets will be more beautiful, and the food he eats will actually taste better. No lie. 
The first three words of your question provides the answer!
Many (I don't say most, and certainly not all) people purchasing ARs don't know much about firearms, or even have much need for a firearm. They just want something that looks like a 'machine gun'.
Most people (again, not all) purchasing bolt action rifles tend to be hunters or competive target shooters. Their numbers are few, relative to all the Walter Mittys out there.
It depends on what the intended 'mission' is. As wickedsprint has said, an AR is more practical for short to medium range combat applications than any bolt action rifle. It is less practical for long range combat, or for most hunting applications.
I agree with Polar Express that in any case, practical considerations typically count for little in individual firearm preferences.
As far as I am concerned, the more people who buy firearms - any firearms - the better. Anyone who owns a gun is more likely than a non-gun owner to oppose restrictive laws, even if they never use the gun and it spends its entire life in a closet or drawer. We need all the political support that we can get!
Frankly I am surprised to find a moderator making such an unhelpful and provocative comment.
Please try to stick to the high road.Well, as I indicated above, competitive target shooting and hunting are two well-established uses for centrefire rifles. You may not personally enjoy either activity, but that doesn't make them irrelevant.
umm! current events?!
well with respect to all. you must understand the market and politics. In the wake of the most antigun administration in decades. The citizens are in fear that the right to bare arms and at the very least to have AR-15's or taxation of ammunition and firearms. They are buying them. aside form the market aspect the reasoning behind ar-15's over bolt rifles. is simple the same reason the military does not use bolt action rifles.
well with respect to all. you must understand the market and politics. In the wake of the most antigun administration in decades. The citizens are in fear that the right to bare arms and at the very least to have AR-15's or taxation of ammunition and firearms. They are buying them. aside form the market aspect the reasoning behind ar-15's over bolt rifles. is simple the same reason the military does not use bolt action rifles.
flyboy1788
Member
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2008
- Messages
- 317
^^^^^^^rofl
the vast majority of hunting is recreational. even most deer meat is donated.
it was neither unhelpful nor provocative and more importantly, it was about the argument, not the other posters. it is merely the opposite of the utterly unsupported claim in the OP.
...unlike your comment, which was directed at me and failed to address the argument. feel free to provide some support for why that wasn't an absurd statement.
i shoot matches almost every weekend. it is a hobby. feel free to go back and reread this thread if the context is unclear to you. the fact that many competitive sports require fast follow up shots is one of the many things that make the AR more 'practical' than a bolt gun.
given that hunting and competition fall into the hobby category, i'll ask again: what else is there?
I misunderstood your hobby reference.
I disagree that it is self-evidently "absurd" to suggest that for many hunting applications, a bolt action is more practical than an AR. For one thing, it is simply illegal to use an AR for hunting in some jurisdictions. Perhaps that is unfortunate, but it is a fact.
I also respectfully suggest that it is unhelpful and needlessly provocative to label other people's post "absurd". Admittedly it is better than calling the poster stupid ... but not much better.
We're all posting here because we enjoy each other's (synthetic) company and can benefit from each other's perspectives. Why raise hackles if we can avoid it?
I disagree that it is self-evidently "absurd" to suggest that for many hunting applications, a bolt action is more practical than an AR. For one thing, it is simply illegal to use an AR for hunting in some jurisdictions. Perhaps that is unfortunate, but it is a fact.
I also respectfully suggest that it is unhelpful and needlessly provocative to label other people's post "absurd". Admittedly it is better than calling the poster stupid ... but not much better.
We're all posting here because we enjoy each other's (synthetic) company and can benefit from each other's perspectives. Why raise hackles if we can avoid it?
Luv my 1897
Member
Four words...
Quicker follow up shots.
I live in California. You CAN use AR style rifles to hunt in this state, it just has to be .30 caliber or higher. That is the reason I am going to buy an AR chambered in .308. It is thought of as inhumane to hunt with a .223 or smaller unless you are hunting varmints. I actually agree with that. The 5.56mm round was created for battle, not hunting.
Quicker follow up shots.
I live in California. You CAN use AR style rifles to hunt in this state, it just has to be .30 caliber or higher. That is the reason I am going to buy an AR chambered in .308. It is thought of as inhumane to hunt with a .223 or smaller unless you are hunting varmints. I actually agree with that. The 5.56mm round was created for battle, not hunting.
Last edited:
Luv my 1897
Member
THANK YOU!!! Everyone says AR's are getting more expensive because of Obama, but I haven't seen a significant rise AT ALL! The only thing I see happening is people after the election went and spent three months salary on ammo! I used to be able to go to Wal-Mart and get two or three boxes of Remington Core-Lokt for my 30-30 in any weight I want. Now all they have is crappy flat-nosed (inaccurate) or Ballistic Silvertip (28 dollars a box!) The whole Obama gun scare thing is getting annoying.
Perhaps some people forgot that most gunowners don't hunt.
As far as the comments about AR15 owners lack of firearms knowledge or shooting skills, the same can be said about any segment of the gunowning population of which hunters are no exception.
As far as the comments about AR15 owners lack of firearms knowledge or shooting skills, the same can be said about any segment of the gunowning population of which hunters are no exception.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
I think it's a very good question, and I mostly agree that for all practical intents and purposes, a good turnbolt is BETTER than a good semi (those practical uses being hunting mostly), due to:
1. Reliability (both general feeding reliability and positive extraction)
2. Lower sight line (better for close-in shots)
3. Lighter weight
4. Easier to shoot from a benchrest for sighting in
5. (very marginal advantage) More "politically correct" looking which could matter to some in some circumstances
Did I mention reliability, reliability, reliability?
But having said that, I do likes my semis for that theoretical, ain't-never-really-gonna-happen STHF scenario, and perhaps more importantly as a practical matter, that theoretical and could-possibly-happen, 2nd-rapid-follow-up-shot-on-game needed. So I'm willing to take the weight trade-off, and take on the reliability issue, which can be solved with proper mags, well-designed, well-assembled gun, proper tuning, consistent shooting hold, and consistent ammo.
Now, since (a) I want to cover my contingency bases described that the semi-auto fulfills, and (b) I want to get really really good with JUST ONE rifle, I have thus made my go-to rifle for 98% of hunting & self-defense uses the same one, an AR10 type in .260 rem.
Having said the original statement about a turnbolt being more practical, which it is really (not to mention a lever or pump is as well), there ARE a couple of additional specific advantages to the semi above and beyond capacity/follow-up shots/not moving head between shots, some of which have been mentioned but one of which has not yet been mentioned.
Mentioned was the softer recoil. Not mentioned well the compatibility of most semis (EBR types anyhow), for use with a good single point sling, which I actually find quite useful for stalking/ "still-hunting". Using the single point, or a 3-point for that matter, allows a good way to hold the rifle at the low ready, for hours, without fatigueing as you would do holding up all the weight of a sporter rifle with your arms, since it would only have a carry strap on it, not a sling, then allow you to raise and fire quickly when game is spotted. Since I prefer the stalking/still-hunting method of hunting over an ambush /tree stand setup (which just ends up with me asleep), this is an important point to me.
Now the day that Remington puts a ring on the rear of the receiver of a 700 so that I can attach a single point to it and go stalk, then I'll change my tune, but until then, this is a real *practical* advantage to the EBR style semi-auto - for HUNTING! IMO.
1. Reliability (both general feeding reliability and positive extraction)
2. Lower sight line (better for close-in shots)
3. Lighter weight
4. Easier to shoot from a benchrest for sighting in
5. (very marginal advantage) More "politically correct" looking which could matter to some in some circumstances
Did I mention reliability, reliability, reliability?
But having said that, I do likes my semis for that theoretical, ain't-never-really-gonna-happen STHF scenario, and perhaps more importantly as a practical matter, that theoretical and could-possibly-happen, 2nd-rapid-follow-up-shot-on-game needed. So I'm willing to take the weight trade-off, and take on the reliability issue, which can be solved with proper mags, well-designed, well-assembled gun, proper tuning, consistent shooting hold, and consistent ammo.
Now, since (a) I want to cover my contingency bases described that the semi-auto fulfills, and (b) I want to get really really good with JUST ONE rifle, I have thus made my go-to rifle for 98% of hunting & self-defense uses the same one, an AR10 type in .260 rem.
Having said the original statement about a turnbolt being more practical, which it is really (not to mention a lever or pump is as well), there ARE a couple of additional specific advantages to the semi above and beyond capacity/follow-up shots/not moving head between shots, some of which have been mentioned but one of which has not yet been mentioned.
Mentioned was the softer recoil. Not mentioned well the compatibility of most semis (EBR types anyhow), for use with a good single point sling, which I actually find quite useful for stalking/ "still-hunting". Using the single point, or a 3-point for that matter, allows a good way to hold the rifle at the low ready, for hours, without fatigueing as you would do holding up all the weight of a sporter rifle with your arms, since it would only have a carry strap on it, not a sling, then allow you to raise and fire quickly when game is spotted. Since I prefer the stalking/still-hunting method of hunting over an ambush /tree stand setup (which just ends up with me asleep), this is an important point to me.
Now the day that Remington puts a ring on the rear of the receiver of a 700 so that I can attach a single point to it and go stalk, then I'll change my tune, but until then, this is a real *practical* advantage to the EBR style semi-auto - for HUNTING! IMO.
TexasRifleman
Moderator Emeritus
Somewhat true I guess. I don't need to hunt for the meat, I need to hunt for the primal connection to the food chain if that makes sense. But you're right, hunting is recreational at this point.
Thing is though that could change very quickly in an economic crisis.
dullh
Member
The AR's are what all the "operators" (real and internet!) use - it's all the rage!
Never liked them. I had to carry a Vietnam-era M16 when I was on active duty and could care less if I ever touched one again. Had two (Armalite and RRA), sold them. AR's are novelty items to me. You will not have to stand in line behind me at the gun shop counter to get an AR, 'cause I won't be there! The only two military pattern rifles I own are an Inland Steel M1 Carbine from WWII and an HK-91 (a real one not a clone). The rest are lever guns, bolt guns and a (new) muzzleloader.
You can have all the AR stuff you want - I just don't care for them.
Never liked them. I had to carry a Vietnam-era M16 when I was on active duty and could care less if I ever touched one again. Had two (Armalite and RRA), sold them. AR's are novelty items to me. You will not have to stand in line behind me at the gun shop counter to get an AR, 'cause I won't be there! The only two military pattern rifles I own are an Inland Steel M1 Carbine from WWII and an HK-91 (a real one not a clone). The rest are lever guns, bolt guns and a (new) muzzleloader.
You can have all the AR stuff you want - I just don't care for them.
- Status
