2nd Amendment issue in my church

I've had a few talks with the guys in my "small group" about guns. Most know I own a gun and like to get others to shoot. Many are supportive, but don't see owning a gun themselves. A few obviously see no need for guns, a bit idyllic but they don't cal them evil or the like. So far it's been pretty good.

I like Just One Shot's idea. Use this as a lesson. Take the verses that speak of the Pharisee's, how they cleaned the outside of the cup hoping to make the inside clean. Then the old stand by of "Judge not lest ye be judged. Pull the plank out of thine eye before..."

There are plenty of good scriptural examples to help this situation. You have spoken to your pastor, and should respect his authority. Teach your son to do the same. Respect her authority, but there are also many verses that call one to be blameless and without shame. The quicker he's used to the idea that people are different, the better person he'll be and a better servant. Reinforce that the scripture is how we divine God's will.

Personally, I'd be more upset at the pastor. He's the one making the call, or in this, ignoring the situation. Whether it's because of not wanting to offend an important member of the church (the teacher), or not wanting to lose a teacher, he's negligent in his duties in not correcting one of his flock.

Don

Despite my knee-jerk reaction to this story, post #14 is the answer.

I'd hate for you to be so frustrated with your pastor's inaction that you can't be fed by God's word when he teaches it. You need to let that go.

However, you cannot put your children into that known environment ever again. She obviously won't change, so you should expect that she'll publicly browbeat children regularly. Your children should not receive such treatment, and your children shouldn't have to witness such treatment toward others.

Pray for her. Pray for your pastor. Pray for your kids.

"He was not happy with our situation, but informed us that this was not the first time Mrs. "Smith" bestowed her personal wisdom on other church members."

Right there tells you all you really need to know.

Every church has one, and the best thing you can do is keep your kids as far away from her as possible, especially now that you have called her about this. From here on out, I can promise you she will make it her personal vendetta to hound your kids because you dared to speak up to her.

She will eventually sour your children on church to the point where they don't want to go at all, if alllowed to.

Just an idea... Show the kid she's a duff by taking him to the pastor and discussing the matter (and guns) in the sanctuary of the church. Have your son ask his advice. This will do better than telling him anything. It will show your son she was wrong by saying guns cannot be discussed in church by discussing them in the church with the church leader.

If you tell him she's an old bat, it's just your word against the church lady. If you show him via the pastor, it'll stick.

Don't tell the pastor what you're up to though as he'll divert from it to avoid conflict in his congregation. Just advise your son has questions about the incident and wanted to hear from the pastor himself as an authority. That's what he's there for, right?

Afterward, point out to him that you all discussed it in the church which drives the lesson home. Make sure you state that everyone has opinions and some peoples' opinions differ greatly from others. This will be a pretty good lesson for him about social interaction if you can pull it off well.

My big thing with the whole matter is that she just flat out lied to the little fellow by saying it was wrong. The way she did it was bad, but what she said was just flat out wrong. For that I would reconvene with the pastor and pursue that matter aggressively.

My 2 cents.
-MW

I'm not a fan of church so I'm probably the wrong guy, but It could be a good opportunity to explain to the wee ones that there are people who disagree and that some of those people use their authority to force their opinions on others. I believe another member mentioned deiscression. this will be a good test of that for the kids.

Looking at it logically and seeing that this woman is doing stuff like that and the pastor blows you off like you don't really matter, how attached are you to this church?

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew. Not something he said to others or something he did to anyone else, but over something he drew. And since this isn't the first time something like this has happened she has established a pattern of behavior that will not change.

Her behavior was completely inappropriate and the leadership should assign her a role where her lack of judgment and personal control won't result in her verbally brutalizing anyone that can't see it as her problem.

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That's what I was going to say.

I'd also talk to other parents and get them on this same bandwagon.

Then take your kids aside and tell them that some people have different beliefs than we do, and some people are just plain wrong and you have to learn to sort out for yourself the things people say.


On a side note, there's people like this in every church and while I am a devout Christian, I don't attend any church regularly because frankly (to paraphrase Dennis Miller) I love the Lord, but I don't trust most of the people that work for him.

I no longer hold any religious beliefs. However I know from my younger days that there is plenty of information int he bible that support our Pro Self defense stance and lay low her arguments.

Major Bummer....

we like our kids to be in Sunday school and learn about the Lord, but we are afraid of the moral direction they may get from this dear old lady.

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Well old bitty "Smith" obviously isn't teaching them about the Lord now is she?

I would clearly tell my kids that Mrs. Smith is wrong.... but seize the teaching moment to discuss how you act when confronted with people who are wrong. Respectfully disagreeing is a little hard when it's adult vs. kid.... but I'll bet your kids are sharp enough to understand the difference.

This past school year, I quietly pulled my daughters out of their Sunday school class because their teacher was a barking drill seargant with the kids. It was awkward, because we've know the lady for years and generally like her and her husband. Their daughter has even baby sat for us. But their are some unruley boys in the class who have slack parents that can't teach them self control.... so the lady uses the only method she knows that works. Personally, I'd have the parents interupted in their adult class and require them to remove their little darlings from the class. And "uninvite them" untill they learned some respect and self control. (If the pastors didn't like that... they would have just volunteered themselves to teach the class in my stead )

It all starts in the home and no teacher at church or school is going to be able to teach your kids like you can. Also, their not the ones who are going to give an acount for YOUR kids.

If Sunday school isn't a positive experience, becasue the kids are out of control, then I don't require my girls to go.

As for Mrs. Smith... you're not going to change her.... but I would write a strongly worded letter to the Deacons Board (or Elders or Presbyters, or whatever you have) and make it clear that it's their duty to make sure that their Sunday school program is Christ focused and doesn't degenerate into a "platform for anti-American liberal politics"

If they don't have the sack to put ol' bitty Smith in her place or pull her out of the class, then I've got news for you..... there's likely ten time worse things going on in the church that you just don't know about yet.

I'll say a day after Father's Day prayer for you to have the wisdom and grace to know and do the right thing.

I beleive you can be an earnest brother of sister in the Lord and have a opposite opinions on gun politics. I also beleive it's my responsibility to, in as much as it's up to me, to live in peace with others. But it is also my responsibility (not the churches, and not the schools and certainly not Hilary Clinton's village) to raise my kids.

In your situation, as I understand it, the issue is not gun control, it's an abusive teacher who has gone beyond what's proper and right and humilitated a young child to satisfy her political agenda.

Then again... you could take it up with her husband.... though I doubt such an woman accepts even her husbands authority..... buy at least you can punch him in the nose..

Ask to have her removed from working with children. Not on the basis of her political or so-called ethical issue with firearms, but because she publicly berated a minor child for something he drew.

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Big time +1...

Hey PM coming your way. I would like to tell you about my church

Just an idea... Show the kid she's a duff by taking him to the pastor and discussing the matter (and guns) in the sanctuary of the church. Have your son ask his advice. This will do better than telling him anything. It will show your son she was wrong by saying guns cannot be discussed in church by discussing them in the church with the church leader.

If you tell him she's an old bat, it's just your word against the church lady. If you show him via the pastor, it'll stick.

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I think there's a lot of wisdom in this approach....

From time to time, my oldest has hit me with a theological stumper (like... "does God have nipples")...

When I answer her... I try to go straight to the book, as it's the authority of the Word that matters, even more than Dad's opinion.

On a couple occasions, she's hit me up with seeming contradictions in scripture. We read everything together and then talk about it. Then I ask her what she thinks. I may or may not tell her what I think, but have on a couple occasions, encouraged her to ask our senior pastor.

My main objective here is usually not the question, but rather encouraging her to form relationship with a man whom I love and respect.... and to show her that we have resources in the Christian community to turn to for help.

Funny thing is.... Pastor will usually read a few applicable verses with her and then say "so what do you think?"

Now, our church is by no means a "relativistic", "you have your truth and that's o.k." type of place. But rather, he understands that when a person discovers an answer from the Word, it's theirs for life and they learn how to go to the Word for answers.

You may not have control over her, but you do have control over your kids. When it's her turn to teach, do something else as a family. Have Sunday school at home and then go to church services. Stay home and watch a good family movie. Or just take that day to do something fun as a family.

Whatever you decide, take the high road when you do it. This is a character building opportunity for you and your children. Don't blow it by launching an anti-Mrs. Smith attack campaign. If someone asks why you weren’t there last Sunday tell them, “we decided to go on a family picnic”. If someone asks you about the situation with Mrs. Smith, explain it in a way that is respectful of her. If she is as curmudgeonly as you described and someone asks her about it, she will likely reveal her true colors as she goes off on a rant. It’s been my experience in conflicts like this that whoever resorts to personal attacks loses.

It sounds like you have handled things maturely so far. Keep it up. As you take “the high road”, you will be teaching your kids to take “the high road”. And isn’t that what Sunday school is all about?

Just my $.02 worth. Good luck.

Might I recommend leading a study (family or otherwise) on the topic of biblical self defense. It will challenge you and help your children to understand why we believe certain things are morally ok.

You can use my sig for a starting place.

The following is strictly MY opinion

All the responses about making her look bad in front of the Pastor or going to the Deacon board or basically pushing the issue until you get your way (manipulation, root of witchcraft) are designed to do one thing and one thing only, create disunity and dissension in the church.

You’ve told the Pastor, he’s the head over that congregation and he hears from God (if he doesn’t you’re in the wrong church). He’ll know what to do. The Bible says we are to be subject to the governing authorities because God himself put them in that position to do his will. (That includes Sunday school teachers as well as, Pastors). If you’re truly convinced that this is the church that God has placed you in then you need to submit to the Pastor’s authority. (Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft) I f you’re not willing to submit to his authority in this, again he’s not preaching heresy or false doctrine, maybe you should consider finding a church where you are willing to be under their headship.

I am a Christian, and go to church and I'll tell you if a leader of any kind got up and was spouting their personal opinions and nothing was done about it, I would find somewhere else to worship. Christian churches are about what's in the Bible. In fact the Bible says to speak where the word speaks and be silent where the word is silent. Church is no place for personal opinions. Period.

Just how much child abuse will people put up with in the name of church unity and respecting authority figures?

Because that is what this old bat is doing.

To put it bluntly, "Mrs. Smith" has a bug up her wazoo that needs to be removed. Either that or "Mrs. Smith" needs too be removed to a place where her 'bug" won't effect anyone else.

Your pastor is apparently well aware of the problem, and lacks the authority (?) or the will to do anything about it. (my vote would be the latter)

So, now it's down to your will.

Try this

Explain to your kids the difference between facts and opinions. Encourage them to stand up, even at their young age, and explain to persons in authority that they don't agree with their opinions.

My oldest son, in 6th grade, had a math teacher explain to everyone in class how those military officers were so childish, because all they wanted was to have more nukes than the other guy. My son asked the teacher what his background was, then he explained that HIS dad (that would be me) had attended all sorts of military schools on the subject and had devoted his life to the issue, and he didn't consider his dad to be childish.

When my oldest son told me what he had done, I asked him what the teacher did after that. My son said that the teacher just got quiet for a short while, then he went back to teaching math.

- - - Yoda

As long as her doctrine is sound and she's teaching in accordance with your denomination's standards her opinion of the second amendment is irrelevant

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Yes, her opinion is relevant because she reprimanded a child and forced her views upon him.

I wouldnt be as civil as you are. I had an issue with a sunday school teacher myself once. Long story:

I had an uncle who was a homosexual. He died a while back. Our family was very open about his orientation, as he had a life partner that he was with for almost 30 years. During sunday school the teacher told the class that all homosexuals go to hell no matter what. When my son questioned her she told him that his great uncle, that he loved, was in fact burning for eternity in hell. It didnt end pretty. While I do love the lord and love my church, I can have an acid tongue and it did not bother me a bit to pour it on her.

I feel that you need to stand up to her and tell her that she is not to teach these things to your child and shouldnt be teaching them to any child. You should also talk to your pastor again and tell him that he is in danger of "thinning his flock" if he doesnt correct her behavior.

Our Monsignor chuckled when my fiance asked for his permission to bring her glock to church. (Missouri law requires pastor permission.)

had an uncle who was a homosexual. He died a while back. Our family was very open about his orientation, as he had a life partner that he was with for almost 30 years. During sunday school the teacher told the class that all homosexuals go to hell no matter what. When my son questioned her she told him that his great uncle, that he loved, was in fact burning for eternity in hell. It didnt end pretty. While I do love the lord and love my church, I can have an acid tongue and it did not bother me a bit to pour it on her.

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You just opened up a doctrinal can of "My God is better than your God " worms that has no place in this discussion. by begging the debate is homosexuality a sin (please note I'm offering no opinion )

The topic of this thread was how to deal with a second amendment issue within the confines of the church. The question was not doctrinal at all.

I predict a rapid desent into acrimony and name calling followed by threadlock

I once told a young person that it's all right to get mad, it's how you deal with it that makes a difference. I don't care if we are talking about guns or religionin my church, my goal is not to send a kid home feeling like dukie! Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt. Salt being a preservative, but also makes you thirsty for more!

Absolutely. Please keep on topic.

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It has been kept on topic. His post was an example, with a teacher making that statement. Other than that statement made by a Sunday School teacher in the example, this has been about what to do about the teacher in question. Even that post addressed the issue.

Please don't get too quick with the threadlock button.