Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time

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After all, we keep arguing that the feds should enforce laws already on the books. They are doing that, fine. But shouldn't the focus be on the trash pulling the triggers? People are obsessed with placing the blame everywhere but where it belongs.

Absolutely. The blame in this particular instance is misplaced, but we always cry "enforce existing laws," only to complain when they do.
 
Birdmang, interesting you were criticizing "liberals" in another thread recently. And that you're a poli-sci major. Apparently you don't identify with conservatives, either, because any degree of conservative would see this for what it is: encroachment on our ("the people's") rights by the federal government.

There are, and need to be, laws against unlawful search and seizure; all it takes is enough people like you, who see no problem with some anonymous suit declaring what is and isn't suspicious, and suddenly we're living in a country where you are suspected of being a criminal simply for possessing a perfectly legal inanimate object. I hear you saying "But if you aren't a criminal, having suspicion directed at you is harmless." Sure, until the definition of criminal is changed that is. Do I need to list quotes from the hundreds of politicians who would love to consider you a criminal for owning a gun?
 
I absolutely do not identify myself as a conservative or a liberal, my ideological and political views have more depth and meaning than a mere name.

There is nothing unlawful about being asked about your weapons. Slippery slope arguments don't hold up either.
 
Birdmang,

I know what you're saying and that would be true in a world that made sense. But here in this country, in this political climate, common sense is pretty much extinct. We are all coming from the mindset that we are law abiding gun owners so what do I need to worry about? But, even with best intentions it is so easy to get in trouble. With THOUSANDS of convoluted firearms laws on the books how are we supposed to do everything correctly every time? The fact and the reality is that we are being preyed upon not only by criminals but by our own justice system. Every year the laws become more restrictive and more onerous on honest people while no real effort is made towards reducing the causes of crime along with broken court and prison systems and the liberal media. All this effort to disarm us is ignoring the true problem. The problem is the conditions and mindsets that cause certain members of our society to disregard laws, conscience and compassion. The effort should be to eliminate hard criminals instead of manufacturing statutory offenders from well intentioned citizens that unwittingly violate some obscure statute or regulation. I cannot help but think of the quote from Jeffrey Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards" where he says "In the mid-sixties there was a public service advertising campaign targeted at car owners about the prevention of car theft. The purpose of the ad was to urge car owners not to leave their keys in their cars. The message was, "Don't help a good boy go bad." The implication was that, by leaving his keys in his car, the normal, law-abiding car owner was contributing to the delinquency of minors who, if they just weren't tempted beyond their limits, would be "good." Now, in those days people still had a fair sense of just who was responsible for whose behavior. The ad succeeded in enraging a goodly portion of the populace, and was soon dropped." That is the problem. Nobody is willing to put the blame where it belongs. We keep saying it but nobody is listening, guns are not the problem it's the criminals. If you have criminals loose in your country killing people then the criminals should be held accountable for their actions. If you take away all the guns(good luck) they will be killing people with machetes. When you take away all the machetes they will be killing people with rocks. At what point do we say our plan isn't working? When all the rocks are gone? Can you see how ridiculous this line of thinking is? Honest people should have much more freedom legally. There should be far fewer statues and regulations. And the laws should be easy to understand and consistent from state to state. But, if you commit a serious crime you should be held accountable. And if you commit your crimes in Mexico then Mexico should deal with it and not make it an American issue. The U.S. shouldn't be steppin' and fetchin' for a corrupt joke of a government like Mexico, IMHO.
 
Birdmang, interesting you were criticizing "liberals" in another thread recently. And that you're a poli-sci major. Apparently you don't identify with conservatives, either, because any degree of conservative would see this for what it is: encroachment on our ("the people's") rights by the federal government.

I consider myself to conservative or many issues and this story does not not bother me one little bit.

I'm sorry but I'd judge your view as extreme and not conservative, liberal or mainstream. This is simply the ATF doing what they are supposed to do, I don't see where anyone's rights were violated but if you can point out where in the report that occurs, I'd be happy to reconsider it.

The agents aren't going "door to door" They were following "leads"

ATF acting director Kenneth Melson described as a “massive number of investigative leads.”


All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.

OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico... :cool:

Seems like a VERY GOOD way for the ATF to be spending their time.

If you happened to buy a few handguns and disposed of them south of the border, then perhaps you should get a lawyer or three.
 
And if you commit your crimes in Mexico then Mexico should deal with it and not make it an American issue. The U.S. shouldn't be steppin' and fetchin' for a corrupt joke of a government like Mexico, IMHO.


And again, if you bought gunz and sold them in Mexico, you need lawyerz and lots of them. :uhoh:

Ignorance and lamentations of the lawz is not an an excuse.
 
OK, so that means the ATF ALREADY traced back these guns and are going to visit the people who bought them and ask them how they ended up in Mexico...

Actually this report doesn't say they are going to those people and asking them why their guns wound up in Mexico, they are going to people who have made multiple purchases and asking them where the guns are.

That's not really the same thing. This is a "prove you are innocent" type of investigation, not a "we have evidence you are connected to a crime and we would like more info".

If a gun I sold ended up in Mexico and the ATF came knocking I'd lawyer up and all that, but I would admit that yes indeed they are following a lead.

That is not what's going on here. These agents are visiting people who have done nothing more than purchase multiple handguns in a week. That is not a crime, it is not in and of itself connected to a crime.

That's not 'following a lead' or 'enforcing existing laws' since there is no crime.

Let's say I buy 5 handguns in a week and sell them all over a period of a few weeks to various buyers at local gun shows. That's legal. I am also not required to keep a paper trail on the disposition of those guns since I am not a dealer.

So ATF comes knocking, I decide to be a "good guy" and invite them in to answer their questions.

"Did you buy 5 handguns"

"Yes"

"Can we see them?"

"No, I sold them"

"Who did you sell them to?"

"No idea, some guys at a gunshow. They showed me a CHL but I didn't write any names down. They paid me cash"




Now what? No crime committed, no law broken.

What do you think will happen next?
 
Slippery slope arguments don't hold up either.

Don't tell us that it could not happen in America.
It IS happening in America right now. Get your head out of the sand and
look around.
Mexico should deal with it's own problems. Why are Feds nosing around in other
people's lives over something that is across the border? Answer: It is the Perfect Storm. GREAT excuse to CONFISCATE citizens personal weaponry.

REMEMBER NAZI GERMANY... They went down a 'slippery slope.'
 
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

Granted maybe some very SMALL percentage of guns in Mexico are from this situation, but it should still be pursued.
 
Yes, I agree with you. I'm not advocating or supporting illegal gun running or profiteering. Again, people should be held accountable for their actions. Nor am I suggesting ignorance of the law is an excuse. But who among us knows ALL the laws? Without looking it up, can you tell me what Title 26 USC 5841 is? I wouldn't expect that. And it's not important what that exact law is. The point is that there are way too many laws. We should be concentrating on the finger not the trigger.
 
Sorry, my mistake, the ATF has your best interests in mind. Cooperate and you will not be in trouble. Cooperation with large, faceless government agencies that operate off illegal data-gathering systems is always the best policy. Did you learn that in your poli sci classes, birdmang?
 
Actually this report doesn't say they are going to those people and asking them why their guns wound up in Mexico, they are going to people who have made multiple purchases and asking them where the guns are.


Success on the front lines of a government blitz on gunrunners supplying Mexican drug cartels with Houston weaponry hinges on logging heavy miles and knocking on countless doors. Dozens of agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives — sent here from around the country — are needed to follow what ATF acting director Kenneth Melson described as a “massive number of investigative leads.”

All told, Mexican officials in 2008 asked federal agents to trace the origins of more than 7,500 firearms recovered at crime scenes in Mexico. Most of them were traced back to Texas, California and Arizona.
 
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

It is impossible to stop this kind of crime unless you can successfully prohibit and confiscate every last firearm, or somehow impenetrably close the border to both sides. That's like saying our LEO should be stopping the drug trade. It's simply not possible.

This is nothing more than a fishing scheme for evidence to back up an assumption made many months ago.
 
There are American citizens buying guns and selling them illegally to mexicans. This is something that our LEO should be stopping, this is our problem.

Don't believe it at all.... They (atf) can say anything
they want 'cause they are ABOVE
THE LAW!!
 
The article asks the question how someone living in a run-down shack bought 5 high-end hand guns in one day?

That is a blatant red-flag and it's the mission of the ATF to investigate.

It's no secret Mexican cartels are getting hand guns from the US. The FA rifles are coming in from somewhere else but that is another matter.
 
i went to college too......and birdman, you strike me as the sort of person that naturally advocates for his area of "expertise", or anything even smacking of the area, no matter how wrong you might be. kind of like the the sociology student that defends senseless social programs simply because he studied why they came about and how they work.

if you deny the existence of the venerable slippery slope, widely observable throughout the history of how authories interact with populaces, you are living in denial of something as tangible as oxygen.

in this country, we are in a very real, constant struggle to preserve our right to keep arms. laying down for intrusiveness by ANY government agency, especially one with a reputation for very arbitrary policy and behaviour, is so far from the intentions that our good founders had for american citizens, it almost seems like certain people are just playing devil's advocate.....which leads back to my original point.
 
Don't believe it at all.... They (atf) can say anything
they want 'cause they are ABOVE
THE LAW!!

You don't think this is happening?

Thinking that this isn't happening is just as ignorant as thinking that no Americans are involved and profiting in the illegal drugs being transported across the border by the cartels.
 
It is impossible to stop this kind of crime unless you can successfully prohibit and confiscate every last firearm, or somehow impenetrably close the border to both sides. That's like saying our LEO should be stopping the drug trade. It's simply not possible.

This is nothing more than a fishing scheme for evidence to back up an assumption made many months ago.

No dude, its an investigation. Guns were ALREADY traced back to the Houston area and when the ATF goes out and rattles doorknobs, they are going to discourage some of this illegal activity as well as provide some cover to the politicos, so they can say they are doing something about it.

Its unrealistic to think the ATF should just sit in their offices and do nothing about this.
 
in this country, we are in a very real, constant struggle to preserve our right to keep arms. laying down for intrusiveness by ANY government agency, especially one with a reputation for very arbitrary policy and behaviour, is so far from the intentions that our good founders had for american citizens, it almost seems like certain people are just playing devil's advocate.....which leads back to my original point.

That has nothing to do with the ATF doing its job. At all...

You would rather they be put in a box and that's fine, its just not realistic.
 
The lamest so far came from a police officer: He said he bought a few military-style rifles, left them in his car and — on the same night — forgot to lock a door. He couldn’t explain why he didn’t file a police report or why he visited Mexico the day after the alleged theft.

OK this is a biggie that no one is mentioning. This is the second time that a LEO [snort] officer has been caught running guns to Mexico-I know it doesn't explicitly say that's what this guy did, but come on... Pretty apparent. So these are the people so many of you are trusting to 'just enforce existing laws'.

I've said it a million times and no one is listening HUGO CHAVEZ'S AK-103 FACTORY IS SOLELY FOR ARMING THESE TYPES OF LEFTIST AND NARCO GROUPS. Ditto Ortega, and no doubt Zelaya would have tried. The drug gangs can much more easily do this than sneak back and forth across the border with money and guns.

Nothing against the AK-103. I have one: They're great.

Also this is exactly the same thing that went on with alcohol during prohibition. What ever happened with that situation?:cool:
 
You don't think this is happening?

Not to the degree purported by your Big Brother, friendly neighborhood ATF. BTW, you have 'little' recourse if you are accused of a minor infraction. Lawyer? Big deal.. Judges will almost ALWAYS fix the jury to rule in favor of government. You don't think that's tyranny?
It is too bad that there are many here that would
exchange their personal liberty for "safety".
Government gets a free pass don't they. REMEMBER NAZI GERMANY..
 
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Also this is exactly the same thing that went on with alcohol during prohibition. What ever happened with that situation?

That is something to think about. If Mexico updated their constitution and allowed their citizens to own firearms, we wouldn't have anymore problems. :D


Its still against the law to shoot cops though...
 
the ATF should just sit in their offices and do nothing about this.

Yes AT THE LEAST.. This is a 'smoke screen', folks.
The gang that brought you Waco, Ruby Ridge and probably OKC.
Our WONDERFUL Gov't agencies!!!
 
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