Geneseo1911
Member
Last edited:
Saiga 12 cheers/jeers?
- Thread starter Col. Plink
- Start date
- Status
The first question one should ask before buying an S12 is whether or not they like projects. An S12 worth owning will be a project. That or one must spend some additional coin paying someone else to do the work for them.
I own/have owned a number of S12s. I like them for what they are. Many of the criticisms I see are based on not understanding what the S12 is or wanting it to be something it is not. It is not a hunting gun. I know people who have taken deer, turkeys and various game birds with an S12. It can be used for hunting. I am not saying it cannot fill that role. I am saying there are better choices. I might use my S12 for hunting for the fun of doing so but I have other shotguns that are much better suited for hunting. It is not a skeet or clay gun. Again one might be able to use it for that, maybe even be successful doing so but there are much better choices. Critiquing an S12 for being a poor hunting or clay gun is like critiquing a Prius for having a poor payload, a one ton truck for not riding like a caddy or a Ferrari for being an impractical daily driver. I really like my S12s (and my other saigas as well) and think much of the criticism they receive is silly. I do not however believe they are the end all be all of shotguns. The following is my off the cuff thoughts on the pros and cons of the S12.
Cons:
QUALITY CONTROL Perhaps the biggest con is very poor quality control. The quality control is poor enough that I would dismiss all definitive claims about what to expect with a Saiga. Some claim they won’t run bird shot well. I have had one that came out of the box and ran a box of light target bird shot with out a hitch. I have another that I when new wouldn’t eject a single round of it. I have seen some with canted sights and poor finishes and others that were flawless. Then there is the batch of guns with an insufficient number of gas ports. In the past some guns have had obstructed gas ports as well. Warranty work is available but it is admittedly a pain and annoying to have to send of a new gun. These guns used to sell for a few hundred dollars. The price increase reflects an increase in demand not quality of construction.
IT WILL NEED WORK As I said above these are in my mind project guns. They are a good base to build a great shotgun. Out of the box they are okay but IMO not really worth the money they command. Someone who wants an out of the box gun should pass on the S12 or decide if a professional conversion is worth the money to them. At a minimum one can plan on doing a basic conversion. A basic conversion makes huge improvements on areas where the stock gun is critiqued: trigger, balance, looks. A basic conversion makes the gun much more useful IMO. It also allows for higher capacity mags which is one appeal of the S12. This is not really difficult but does require a willingness to drill and cut on a brand new gun. It also requires some additional money for the parts.
Beyond the basic conversion one might want to do the S12 version of a fluff and buff and add gunfixer’s gas plug. These things will have most guns running well with lighter loads. Other areas that to me are worth addressing are the poor factory sights (multiple replacement options exist), adding some for of choke be it a polychoke, threading the gun or the use of an adapter for winchokes. I am currently considering adding a mag well to my S12 that allows for one to insert the mags like in an AR as opposed to the rock and lock. I am also considering refinishing one of my saigas and if I like the results doing all the others
POOR FIT AND FINISH As I noted above the S12 has become popular and its price has rapidly inflated. The fit and finish is what one would expect from a gun that cost a few hundred. The most I have paid for one is $450. The gun simply is not a $600-800 gun in its stock form. When one compares it to what can be purchased for that the fit and finish is disappointing. In short it looks and feels like it ought to cost $350. Is it worth 500-550 or even more? Well that depends on if you believe it will be worth the $1000-$1500 gun you can turn it into.
AK ERGOS: For me this is not really a con per se. I have AKM platform rifles and if one is familiar and schooled in the operation of the platform the can be run quickly and easily. That said I know some people hate AK ergos. They will therefore hate the S12’s. The lay out and controls are largely the same on a converted S12.
MAGS ARE EXPENSIVE if you have decided to get an S12 it is because you see an advantage or appeal in a box mag fed shotgun. The disappointment is that said mags are not inexpensive particularly for the 10 round variety. As noted the drum cost over $200. Buying 10 mags will shoot the price of the gun up a considerable amount. With out a spare mag the gun loses what many see as its advantage over a tube fed gun.
PROS
IT IS A FUN PROJECT If you like to customize stuff or make things work better then you’ll likely love and S12. There are so many options of how to set them up one can truly make it there own. Also when compared to the money spent on a more expensive out of the box gun (say a benelli) one can have a gun set up exactly as they like it and tailored to them personal. Kind of like going to Bangkok and getting a custom suit vs buying an off the rack name brand.
CYCLE RATE: This may not really mater in terms of practicality but I believe the S12 is the fastest cycling shotgun out there. It is shocking how quickly one can fire 10 or even twenty rounds. This may only count for a lot in the grin factor though. I have never let someone shoot my S12 that didn’t think it was lots of fun.
SOFT SHOOTING: The S12 is in my experience a very soft shooting gun. I can shoot a lot of rounds of buckshot or slugs without feeling beat up. I could probably shoot bird shot target loads literally all day long and be no worse for wear. Compared to my 870s or mossberg the S12 is much more pleasurable to shoot a high number of slugs or buckshot.
AKM LOOKS: This may not be a pro for everyone but I would wager that a great number of the people who are attracted to the S12 find its looks incredibly appealing. It is after all in essence and AKM shotgun. To me a properly converted S12 is really cool looking. It will get looks at the range or any other place.
RELOAD SPEED: This gets a fair amount a debate about how much of an advantage it is versus a tube fed gun. Do a search and read the debates. I have no desire to rehash or even summarize them again here. I do believe it is undeniable that one could fire 20 or more rounds through an S12 much faster than a tube fed gun. Now that only matters if one is going to fire that many rounds and needs to do so quickly. Most of us don’t need to. Most home defense situations won’t call for that. It is an advantage few of us need. It is perhaps most applicable to three gun competition and that is why the S12 bumps one into the open class automatically.
YOU DECIDE
Is a box mag an advantage or a not. There are people who argue for one side or the other. Personally I believe it has advantages and a few drawbacks. I don’t care to engage in the debate. I believe too much is made of many of the supposed draw backs. I also believe the advantages only present themselves in certain applications and scenarios, ones that don’t apply to most shooters. In short one needs to familiarize themselves with the issues and decide for themselves. I might advise by actually using exemplars of both and giving each a fair shake, something many seem not to have done.
NON ISSUES
Jay-Z famously said I got 99 problems but a ______ aint one. There are some things that I believe the critics harp on that are not really a problem at all. They are as follows:
Top shell deformation. Yes it can happen but there are many easy ways to fix or prevent this IF one is experiencing it.
922r Compliance. 922r is actually pretty easy to understand and very easy to comply with. Seeing as the gun needs to be converted anyhow it is easily kept compliant. I believe 922r is actually a much bigger issues for a Benelli than a saiga. Don’t stick 10(+) rounders in your stock gun and do some quick research on 922r and you’ll be fine especially with the shotgun and its domestically made 10(+) round mags.
SUMMARY
The S12 is to me a fighting shotgun (or for sports simulating that such as 3 gun). It is a poor choice for hunting, clays, etc. One can press it into those roles but there are IMO much, much better choices. The S12 can be a very serviceable weapon. It is a viable choice for home defense and a very formidable weapon. For home defense I do not believe it holds a notable advantage over a number of other shotguns though. A mossy or 870 is just as serviceable and much less expensive and much less work. As always the shooters skills and familiarity with the weapon are more important than the weapon its self. Finally if you end up not liking it you should have little trouble reselling it provided you haven’t butchered it.
I own/have owned a number of S12s. I like them for what they are. Many of the criticisms I see are based on not understanding what the S12 is or wanting it to be something it is not. It is not a hunting gun. I know people who have taken deer, turkeys and various game birds with an S12. It can be used for hunting. I am not saying it cannot fill that role. I am saying there are better choices. I might use my S12 for hunting for the fun of doing so but I have other shotguns that are much better suited for hunting. It is not a skeet or clay gun. Again one might be able to use it for that, maybe even be successful doing so but there are much better choices. Critiquing an S12 for being a poor hunting or clay gun is like critiquing a Prius for having a poor payload, a one ton truck for not riding like a caddy or a Ferrari for being an impractical daily driver. I really like my S12s (and my other saigas as well) and think much of the criticism they receive is silly. I do not however believe they are the end all be all of shotguns. The following is my off the cuff thoughts on the pros and cons of the S12.
Cons:
QUALITY CONTROL Perhaps the biggest con is very poor quality control. The quality control is poor enough that I would dismiss all definitive claims about what to expect with a Saiga. Some claim they won’t run bird shot well. I have had one that came out of the box and ran a box of light target bird shot with out a hitch. I have another that I when new wouldn’t eject a single round of it. I have seen some with canted sights and poor finishes and others that were flawless. Then there is the batch of guns with an insufficient number of gas ports. In the past some guns have had obstructed gas ports as well. Warranty work is available but it is admittedly a pain and annoying to have to send of a new gun. These guns used to sell for a few hundred dollars. The price increase reflects an increase in demand not quality of construction.
IT WILL NEED WORK As I said above these are in my mind project guns. They are a good base to build a great shotgun. Out of the box they are okay but IMO not really worth the money they command. Someone who wants an out of the box gun should pass on the S12 or decide if a professional conversion is worth the money to them. At a minimum one can plan on doing a basic conversion. A basic conversion makes huge improvements on areas where the stock gun is critiqued: trigger, balance, looks. A basic conversion makes the gun much more useful IMO. It also allows for higher capacity mags which is one appeal of the S12. This is not really difficult but does require a willingness to drill and cut on a brand new gun. It also requires some additional money for the parts.
Beyond the basic conversion one might want to do the S12 version of a fluff and buff and add gunfixer’s gas plug. These things will have most guns running well with lighter loads. Other areas that to me are worth addressing are the poor factory sights (multiple replacement options exist), adding some for of choke be it a polychoke, threading the gun or the use of an adapter for winchokes. I am currently considering adding a mag well to my S12 that allows for one to insert the mags like in an AR as opposed to the rock and lock. I am also considering refinishing one of my saigas and if I like the results doing all the others
POOR FIT AND FINISH As I noted above the S12 has become popular and its price has rapidly inflated. The fit and finish is what one would expect from a gun that cost a few hundred. The most I have paid for one is $450. The gun simply is not a $600-800 gun in its stock form. When one compares it to what can be purchased for that the fit and finish is disappointing. In short it looks and feels like it ought to cost $350. Is it worth 500-550 or even more? Well that depends on if you believe it will be worth the $1000-$1500 gun you can turn it into.
AK ERGOS: For me this is not really a con per se. I have AKM platform rifles and if one is familiar and schooled in the operation of the platform the can be run quickly and easily. That said I know some people hate AK ergos. They will therefore hate the S12’s. The lay out and controls are largely the same on a converted S12.
MAGS ARE EXPENSIVE if you have decided to get an S12 it is because you see an advantage or appeal in a box mag fed shotgun. The disappointment is that said mags are not inexpensive particularly for the 10 round variety. As noted the drum cost over $200. Buying 10 mags will shoot the price of the gun up a considerable amount. With out a spare mag the gun loses what many see as its advantage over a tube fed gun.
PROS
IT IS A FUN PROJECT If you like to customize stuff or make things work better then you’ll likely love and S12. There are so many options of how to set them up one can truly make it there own. Also when compared to the money spent on a more expensive out of the box gun (say a benelli) one can have a gun set up exactly as they like it and tailored to them personal. Kind of like going to Bangkok and getting a custom suit vs buying an off the rack name brand.
CYCLE RATE: This may not really mater in terms of practicality but I believe the S12 is the fastest cycling shotgun out there. It is shocking how quickly one can fire 10 or even twenty rounds. This may only count for a lot in the grin factor though. I have never let someone shoot my S12 that didn’t think it was lots of fun.
SOFT SHOOTING: The S12 is in my experience a very soft shooting gun. I can shoot a lot of rounds of buckshot or slugs without feeling beat up. I could probably shoot bird shot target loads literally all day long and be no worse for wear. Compared to my 870s or mossberg the S12 is much more pleasurable to shoot a high number of slugs or buckshot.
AKM LOOKS: This may not be a pro for everyone but I would wager that a great number of the people who are attracted to the S12 find its looks incredibly appealing. It is after all in essence and AKM shotgun. To me a properly converted S12 is really cool looking. It will get looks at the range or any other place.
RELOAD SPEED: This gets a fair amount a debate about how much of an advantage it is versus a tube fed gun. Do a search and read the debates. I have no desire to rehash or even summarize them again here. I do believe it is undeniable that one could fire 20 or more rounds through an S12 much faster than a tube fed gun. Now that only matters if one is going to fire that many rounds and needs to do so quickly. Most of us don’t need to. Most home defense situations won’t call for that. It is an advantage few of us need. It is perhaps most applicable to three gun competition and that is why the S12 bumps one into the open class automatically.
YOU DECIDE
Is a box mag an advantage or a not. There are people who argue for one side or the other. Personally I believe it has advantages and a few drawbacks. I don’t care to engage in the debate. I believe too much is made of many of the supposed draw backs. I also believe the advantages only present themselves in certain applications and scenarios, ones that don’t apply to most shooters. In short one needs to familiarize themselves with the issues and decide for themselves. I might advise by actually using exemplars of both and giving each a fair shake, something many seem not to have done.
NON ISSUES
Jay-Z famously said I got 99 problems but a ______ aint one. There are some things that I believe the critics harp on that are not really a problem at all. They are as follows:
Top shell deformation. Yes it can happen but there are many easy ways to fix or prevent this IF one is experiencing it.
922r Compliance. 922r is actually pretty easy to understand and very easy to comply with. Seeing as the gun needs to be converted anyhow it is easily kept compliant. I believe 922r is actually a much bigger issues for a Benelli than a saiga. Don’t stick 10(+) rounders in your stock gun and do some quick research on 922r and you’ll be fine especially with the shotgun and its domestically made 10(+) round mags.
SUMMARY
The S12 is to me a fighting shotgun (or for sports simulating that such as 3 gun). It is a poor choice for hunting, clays, etc. One can press it into those roles but there are IMO much, much better choices. The S12 can be a very serviceable weapon. It is a viable choice for home defense and a very formidable weapon. For home defense I do not believe it holds a notable advantage over a number of other shotguns though. A mossy or 870 is just as serviceable and much less expensive and much less work. As always the shooters skills and familiarity with the weapon are more important than the weapon its self. Finally if you end up not liking it you should have little trouble reselling it provided you haven’t butchered it.
BTW reading No Alibi's post made me think to add that the Saiga 20 is a beast unto its self and has very different issues than the S12. The S20 is the one saiga (well that the the 30'06 and the slant cut .308) that I don't own. I have no plans to purchase one either. The lack parts availability and from what I can gather seem to be less reliable than the 12s. There are fixes and options for them but I am much less familiar with the S20 than all the other saigas.
bobotech
Member
Huh?? WTH are you talking about. 260 dollars at MDarms website and they have them in stock.
Wow, i was going to lay into that dude about "...the 20 round drum everyone brags about, the MD20, costs over $400 (if you can find one)" since MDarms has it IN STOCK for $260.
Thankfully, others beat me too it.
Ok here's the deal with the S12, (i've owned 6 of them).
They are $300 shotguns that sell for $500+. For $150 you can convert it yourself to a pistol gripped/fixed stock gun. For $200 you can buy 4 or 5 10rd Mags. So for Under $1,000 you can get a sweet gun. Or you can buy a Benelli M4 for $1200+.
My open S12 is right at $1750 with Mags, Optics, Irons, Chokes, Conversion, Brakes, Magwell.
Thankfully, others beat me too it.
Ok here's the deal with the S12, (i've owned 6 of them).
They are $300 shotguns that sell for $500+. For $150 you can convert it yourself to a pistol gripped/fixed stock gun. For $200 you can buy 4 or 5 10rd Mags. So for Under $1,000 you can get a sweet gun. Or you can buy a Benelli M4 for $1200+.
My open S12 is right at $1750 with Mags, Optics, Irons, Chokes, Conversion, Brakes, Magwell.
chuckusaret
member
I had one for a short time and it got the nickname of "Sad Saiga" at the range. I might have just gotten a lemon but it was not relieble, continuious cycle problems, poor balance and wicked recoil. I would not recommend this gun for any type of self defense use.
Chuckusaret, do you make it down to Ft. Lauderdale any? Do you know of any location in ft.laud or WPB that will allow rapid fire AND bird shot?
Indoor ranges you can rapid fire but only with Slugs and Buck... outdoor you can shoot bird but you have to shoot SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.
Any ideas Chuck?
Indoor ranges you can rapid fire but only with Slugs and Buck... outdoor you can shoot bird but you have to shoot SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW.
Any ideas Chuck?
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
It's got both: Cheers are speed, reliability, accessories. Jeers are weight, poor ergos (unless you spend a lot of money), and disadvantage relative to tube mag when prone.
Dr. Tad.
Stock Saiga weighs 0.1lb more than a stock Benelli M4 (4+1).
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php
You get better Ergos with a conversion... I converted mine for $130. (ALOT of money)
I don't seem to have any issues hitting the targets when prone either. (you know you can tilt guns left and right... they still work.
)
~SN
Stock Saiga weighs 0.1lb more than a stock Benelli M4 (4+1).
http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga_12.htm
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m4.php
You get better Ergos with a conversion... I converted mine for $130. (ALOT of money)
I don't seem to have any issues hitting the targets when prone either. (you know you can tilt guns left and right... they still work.
)~SN
I went with the Mossberg 930 SPX semi-auto 12 gauge, why?
* Carrying multiple Saiga mags would take up weight and space as opposed to just a pocket full of shells.
* The SPX 930 feels and points more natural
* I didn't want to spend an ass load of money on conversions and $60 mags
* Reloading the SPX can be done swiftly if practiced
* Carrying multiple Saiga mags would take up weight and space as opposed to just a pocket full of shells.
* The SPX 930 feels and points more natural
* I didn't want to spend an ass load of money on conversions and $60 mags
* Reloading the SPX can be done swiftly if practiced
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
member
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2007
- Messages
- 13,146
OK, I'll buy that.
Hmmm, what did you manage to get done for $130? I had to pay a LOT more than that to trick it.
Yeah, OK, tilting works, but it's still a slight disadvantage compared to a tube mag.
They're cool, that's for sure! I still say they're heavier than they need to be by the time you add that a solid mount on that side mount base.
chuckusaret
member
Sorry, I don't know of any place that allows rapid fire. I have never gone to any ranges south of Palm Beach county.
I personally find a loaded box mag easier to carry than loose shells. YMMV.
I suppose ass load is relative. Mags although the can be had for less than $60 are expensive and the price should be taken into consideration.
There are other methods to mount optics and one that I believe are preferable to a side mount.
Wow this topic is like a tennis game..... back and forth. Good points on both sides.
My saiga, bolt on pistol grip stock, 10 rounders, no choke yet. May not be THE best at anything, but it is my most fun gun.
Mine will cycle cheap wal-mart federal target loads. ($22 per 100, cheapest they had). I have had only 2 stove pipes, first day out, within the first 20 rounds. Both happened on the last round of the mag.
After polishing the bolt, just polish, no grinding. Smoothed out the action a lot, has not had a problem since. Even with 10 rounders. Also used spray can rem oil, and wheel bearing grease on the high traffic parts. Cheap stuff doesn't get enough praise.
I bought my AGP ten rounders, $44 a piece. Might be expensive, But all mags are.
Basically, if I need an HD weapon, I am grabbing a pistol. Much easier to handle than any long gun. Ever tried to open a door with any long gun at the ready?
If I am going to grab a gun for shooting clays, To have fun. Will be the saiga. If I am going to compete. Will be an O/U. Do people realize that things can be fun, even if not proper.
I don't own a pump, I might someday. But If I need a weapon for zombies... it would be the O/U.... Never had a cycling problem in that.
> Also, Anyone know where to get a magwell? Seen them, but not where to get them....
My saiga, bolt on pistol grip stock, 10 rounders, no choke yet. May not be THE best at anything, but it is my most fun gun.
Mine will cycle cheap wal-mart federal target loads. ($22 per 100, cheapest they had). I have had only 2 stove pipes, first day out, within the first 20 rounds. Both happened on the last round of the mag.
After polishing the bolt, just polish, no grinding. Smoothed out the action a lot, has not had a problem since. Even with 10 rounders. Also used spray can rem oil, and wheel bearing grease on the high traffic parts. Cheap stuff doesn't get enough praise.
I bought my AGP ten rounders, $44 a piece. Might be expensive, But all mags are.
Basically, if I need an HD weapon, I am grabbing a pistol. Much easier to handle than any long gun. Ever tried to open a door with any long gun at the ready?
If I am going to grab a gun for shooting clays, To have fun. Will be the saiga. If I am going to compete. Will be an O/U. Do people realize that things can be fun, even if not proper.
I don't own a pump, I might someday. But If I need a weapon for zombies... it would be the O/U.... Never had a cycling problem in that.
> Also, Anyone know where to get a magwell? Seen them, but not where to get them....
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Saiga
I am using mine as a Home Defense shotgun. In the closet with a loaded ten round mag on the shelf. How long does it take to deform rounds in the mag? If a loaded mag cannot be stored this is a deal breaker for me. After one day at the range it's just been in my closet. I'm looking for real, actual experience with this problem. Any personal experience appreciated. I need to add that I store my Saiga in a rifle rug, bolt open, ready to insert the mag on the shelf. I also keep a Glock on my bed side table. The shell deformation thing, if true, on a mag thats not left in the gun is bothersome.
I am using mine as a Home Defense shotgun. In the closet with a loaded ten round mag on the shelf. How long does it take to deform rounds in the mag? If a loaded mag cannot be stored this is a deal breaker for me. After one day at the range it's just been in my closet. I'm looking for real, actual experience with this problem. Any personal experience appreciated. I need to add that I store my Saiga in a rifle rug, bolt open, ready to insert the mag on the shelf. I also keep a Glock on my bed side table. The shell deformation thing, if true, on a mag thats not left in the gun is bothersome.
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the magazine will not deform the rounds unless it is inserted in the reciever under a colsed bolt.
i wonder if it is a good idea to leave the recoil spring compressed for extended periods of time.
go to:
http://forum.saiga-12.com/
for more details
gunnie
i wonder if it is a good idea to leave the recoil spring compressed for extended periods of time.
go to:
http://forum.saiga-12.com/
for more details
gunnie
Dr. Tad:
For $130 i can buy and install a pistol grip, stock, trigger, trigger guard.
$50 trigger guard.
$17 Saw grip
$30 G2 trigger
$30 Tapco AK buttstock
But my Russian AK Folder cost me like $300 for parts and installation. So you can go basic conversion for $130 or all out conversion for $1000+
For $130 i can buy and install a pistol grip, stock, trigger, trigger guard.
$50 trigger guard.
$17 Saw grip
$30 G2 trigger
$30 Tapco AK buttstock
But my Russian AK Folder cost me like $300 for parts and installation. So you can go basic conversion for $130 or all out conversion for $1000+
mes228,
The rounds do not deform inside the magazine.
Only the top round slightly deforms due to pressure against a CLOSED bolt.
Solutions: Store without mag in the gun or store with bolt open and mag in gun. No fuss no muss.
The recoil spring assembly, like all springs, does not "wear out" by having it compressed.
The rounds do not deform inside the magazine.
Only the top round slightly deforms due to pressure against a CLOSED bolt.
Solutions: Store without mag in the gun or store with bolt open and mag in gun. No fuss no muss.
The recoil spring assembly, like all springs, does not "wear out" by having it compressed.
Mag in gun, open bolt. have not had any problems with mine.
If you put a full mag in, closed bolt. It may deform over time. But I found cycling the first round in was a pain, and it did dent in the plastic on round one a bit. Fired and grouped fine though.
If you put a full mag in, closed bolt. It may deform over time. But I found cycling the first round in was a pain, and it did dent in the plastic on round one a bit. Fired and grouped fine though.
Mr. Bojangles
Member
I have owned one for about two years. First of all, the negatives. 
1. Mine does not cycle well with the cheap Walmart bulk packs. It does well with the $7-8/box stuff, though. Changing the gas setting helps but does not completely remedy this.
2. It is difficult to insert a magazine without the bolt back, and it does not have an automatic hold back mechanism after the last round is fired.
3. Magazines are a bit pricey, about $50 for a 12-rounder, and if kept loaded for extended periods of time the shells will flatten out somewhat, causing feeding problems.
4. Mine required about 150-200 rounds of break-in before it started functioning well.
Now the good stuff
1. Semiautomatic magazine fed shotgun
2. What it lacks in trap shooting accuracy it can make up for with volume.
3. Mine now exceedingly reliable as long as I account for it's weak points.
4. I have never seen a civilian firearm that can destroy stuff as fast as this shotgun can.
Don't expect a completely trouble free experience if you buy one, but I am of the opinion that the rewards are worth the effort involved.
1. Mine does not cycle well with the cheap Walmart bulk packs. It does well with the $7-8/box stuff, though. Changing the gas setting helps but does not completely remedy this.
2. It is difficult to insert a magazine without the bolt back, and it does not have an automatic hold back mechanism after the last round is fired.
3. Magazines are a bit pricey, about $50 for a 12-rounder, and if kept loaded for extended periods of time the shells will flatten out somewhat, causing feeding problems.
4. Mine required about 150-200 rounds of break-in before it started functioning well.
Now the good stuff
1. Semiautomatic magazine fed shotgun
2. What it lacks in trap shooting accuracy it can make up for with volume.
3. Mine now exceedingly reliable as long as I account for it's weak points.
4. I have never seen a civilian firearm that can destroy stuff as fast as this shotgun can.
Don't expect a completely trouble free experience if you buy one, but I am of the opinion that the rewards are worth the effort involved.
#1 is an issue on some of the newer guns. If you're buying bulk packs, only buy the Federal as they're the most powerful of the value packs.
#2 can be solved with a little practice. It gets much easier once you've realized the technique. (It's 90% technique, 10% practice, 0% strength)
#3 You can buy AGP 10rd mags for $40 from ambient weather. (I love AGP mags)
#4 break ins suck but you're smoothing it out and loosening up the springs.
All your good points are
#2 can be solved with a little practice. It gets much easier once you've realized the technique. (It's 90% technique, 10% practice, 0% strength)
#3 You can buy AGP 10rd mags for $40 from ambient weather. (I love AGP mags)
#4 break ins suck but you're smoothing it out and loosening up the springs.
All your good points are
Great thread.
I have two 12s and an S20 that has a 12" barrel that is for
home defense. It is soon going to have a magwell.
They are some work to get right but once you do, holy smokes. They really are like crack, you just can't stop.
You have to enjoy the platform, if you don't then you will not like these weapons.
I have two 12s and an S20 that has a 12" barrel that is for
home defense. It is soon going to have a magwell.
They are some work to get right but once you do, holy smokes. They really are like crack, you just can't stop.
You have to enjoy the platform, if you don't then you will not like these weapons.
OP
OP
Col. Plink
Member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2009
- Messages
- 1,775
Wow, didn't realize I was starting such an awesome thread! Thanks for everyone's conscientious contributions. I have come to the decision that I am not savvy enough (yet) to be a tinkerer beyond learning dis/reassembly of my guns after use. I have also decided that I will save for my next purchase and likely make it one of these so that I can BECOME a tinkerer. Right now I just lack bucks and a good work station. The cat has an irritating habit of walking across my coffee table while I'm working on stuff and knocking things onto the floor or leaving hair on oily things that arre supposed to slide freely across one another.
I was able to easily upgrade from a 6 to 9-shot Mossy pump for $230+tax so paying extra for something that's really no better made is not something I can pay for right now.
I was able to easily upgrade from a 6 to 9-shot Mossy pump for $230+tax so paying extra for something that's really no better made is not something I can pay for right now.
One more opinion...
I bought a Saiga 12 a few months back primarily for fun. After a box or two of 00 buckshot to break it in, it has been 100% reliable with all loads. As I live in the fine state of NJ, I have not converted mine and instead replaced the black plastic furniture with some wood versions from the Saiga .308. I occasionally shoot skeet with it and generally just shoot it for fun... been very happy with the purchase and it is one of my most enjoyable guns to shoot.
I bought a Saiga 12 a few months back primarily for fun. After a box or two of 00 buckshot to break it in, it has been 100% reliable with all loads. As I live in the fine state of NJ, I have not converted mine and instead replaced the black plastic furniture with some wood versions from the Saiga .308. I occasionally shoot skeet with it and generally just shoot it for fun... been very happy with the purchase and it is one of my most enjoyable guns to shoot.
I have 2 S12's. I have found them 100% reliable with the 10 round mags but have not tried out the drums I bought from MD.
All of the points, pros and cons have been pretty much been covered.
Mine are used for fun. I'll take a pump or my Bennelli M1 if HD is required over the Saiga because I like the tube fed mag in this scenario over the magazine.
The point I would like to make is that a traditional stock design is always going to be superior to the AK pistol grip design. Do your research and it will become a no-brainer. The bottom line is that the ergo's are superior on the stock S12 over the AK conversion and converting it diminishes its potential.
Before you convert yours compare the stock S12 design to the AK format and do some shooting.
I guess people these days are more interested in looks rather than performance.
The only practical reason I can see to convert the S12 is to install a folding stock for better concealment.
All of the points, pros and cons have been pretty much been covered.
Mine are used for fun. I'll take a pump or my Bennelli M1 if HD is required over the Saiga because I like the tube fed mag in this scenario over the magazine.
The point I would like to make is that a traditional stock design is always going to be superior to the AK pistol grip design. Do your research and it will become a no-brainer. The bottom line is that the ergo's are superior on the stock S12 over the AK conversion and converting it diminishes its potential.
Before you convert yours compare the stock S12 design to the AK format and do some shooting.
I guess people these days are more interested in looks rather than performance.
The only practical reason I can see to convert the S12 is to install a folding stock for better concealment.
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