Future military officer?

Sergeant Bob · Nov 2, 2003

I wouldn't report her for not wanting to go to the range with you. I'd just wait until she has to qualify and see what happens. The problem will either show itself then, or she'll get over it and do what's required.

Put a rifle in her hand under enemy fire and she may just make herself into something to be proud of.

You never know how someone's going to perform under fire. When people are trying to kill you, attitudes can change in a hurry. Sometimes the most unlikely people will do extraordinary things.

Lancel · Nov 2, 2003

I agree you can't always predict who'll be good in a fire fight.
Sergeant York considered being a conscientious objector and Audie Murphy was a small sickly young fellow. In both cases, their leaders knew those soldiers' status and motivation.

But unmotivated officers are a burden and danger to the enlisted folks entrusted to them. The information should be reported. The informed commander will know what skills and attitudes are required of the young officer-to-be.

Larry

Sunray · Nov 2, 2003

It's not cowardly. It's not conduct unbecoming. It's not just a free ride to a degree. It's none of that. It's a girl that hasn't been told that shooting is a sport that women are inherently better at than men are. It's a girl that has had no firearm training. Likely no previous exposure to firearms at all.
thefitzvh, you sold it incorrectly. Sell shooting as a sport, not a military requirement. Especially to college kids.
How many guys said no? What kind of weapon handling courses did you run? What kind of range safety courses did you run? All this is terribly important. The last thing you want is a bunch of untrained shooters on a range you arranged. Trust me. As an officer, you must think of everything. No offense, but at the ROTC level, you don't have a crusty old sargent to look after you. Your heart is in the right place and your initative is good, but you forgot that your training and background is differeent from the rest of your class. Leadership is getting people to do the things you want them to do when they wouldn't ordinarily do it. You're close and that's not bad. You just need to sell it differently.
I'll figure out how to send you my e-mail address without broadcasting it and we can chat. My commission is 20 years old now.

PrudentGT · Nov 2, 2003

I'm sure there all of the people on this board who serve in the armed forces do so out of sense of duty and pride in service to one's country, so the following is not directed at those who do so.

There's a word for people who sign up for money: mercenaries. Their poor track record is nothing new.

c_yeager · Nov 2, 2003

There is another category of people who dont sign up to serve their country out of a sense of pride and duty. They are called draftees and they have been some of the best hero's in our nations history. In a society where a college education is getting to be mandatory to get a good job and the price of that education is getting higher and higher people in poor economic situations are presented with precious few opportunities. Joining the military is one of them. The fact is that regardless of motives they ARE serving which is a heck of a lot more than most people her age are doing. I'll take a crappy ROTC student over your typical cardigan wearing, tea sipping, liberal tyrant in training ANY DAY OF THE WEEK.

Sean Smith · Nov 2, 2003

No reason to tattle on her for saying something moronic. It will become self-evident once she arrives at her real training, where she may get an attitude adjustment or flunk out / give up.

striker3 · Nov 2, 2003

There is a diffrence between being a true conscientious objector and saying that you will run if you are ever in a situation where you will need a gun. There have been a lot of conscientous objectors who became medics becuase they were not required to carry arms. But they didn't RUN from a fight, instead they would charge in to save peoples lives without weapons. Takes more courage than most people have. There was even an Army medic on Okinawa who recieved a Medal of Honor and never touched a weapon in his life.

That being said, this cadet sounds like she is there for a free ride and is weak. Report your feelings on the situation and put it in someone else's hands who is better qualified to deal with the situation.

thefitzvh · Nov 2, 2003

It's interesting the wide range of responses on this one. I don't really think there's anything to do other than talk to TSgt toledo about it, and maybe try what one person suggested, pitching it to her as a sport. She's a good solid performer in everything else, so I'd really like this to get solved.

You're right, I don't have a crusty old sergeant, or even a couple corporals to help me. Which sucks. Making the transition from an E4 in the army to a cadet in the air force has been a pretty strange one.

Maybe the other girl that goes can tell her how great it is after the trip.

My goal isn't to make anyone an expert. I'm no firearms instructor. My goal is to give them at least SOME familiarization before they go to field training, because they only get one day there.

Anyways, I appreciate the help, and I'll let you all know what develops. And once again, I didn't mean to offend with the AF comment.

Shoot safe,
James

OEF_VET · Nov 2, 2003

Here's my suggestion: consider it another exercise in leadership. Figure out a way to motivate this young lady to want to go to the range. It may be an impossible task, but try anyways.

If she's a future medical officer, she may be motivated by the rationale that she may need to defend the lives of her patients against the enemy. IIRC, there was a doctor in the Pacific Theater of WW2 who recieved the CMH or Silver Star for doing just that. Do a little research and I'm sure you can find some references where this type of action has been necessary.

If she's the type of person who is opposed to firearms from a purely emotional standpoint, use her emotions as your tool. If she's opposed because of a lack of knowledge or familiarity, then educate her.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck. Our country is in the midst of some tough times, and the last thing we need is military officers unwilling to do what is neccessary to serve it to the fullest of their ability.

Frank

LCSNM · Nov 2, 2003

this is the problem... in the AIR FORCE, it's not required to actually qualify.

Better check out your facts........NOT in the USAF I was in. 24 yrs Ret SMSgt.1979
We had to qualify every 3 months or practice until we did qualify. I was fortunate, liked firearms and qualified EXPERT, every time, in .45, .38 Combat Masterpiece and M16.

In my particular career field, we even had terrorist threat training and subjected to live fire, KEEP YOUR HEAD AND A$$ DOWN, while crawling across the ground. No, I wasn't in LE or Security . I was in Munitions.
Deadly force IF necessary, was drummed into our heads

I'm sure the training was not as rigorus as Army/Marines, but well worth it in my book.

thefitzvh · Nov 2, 2003

Today's air force seems to not put an emphasis on it. I've seen officers commission who hit the paper 4 out of 40 times.

I've checked my facts, and that's why I'm worried.

James

rennaissancemann · Nov 2, 2003

For what it's worth...

The young woman you spoke of has no business in the military, and certainly not as an officer. She's a hazard to herself and to anyone serving under her leadership.

Regards,

OEF_VET · Nov 2, 2003

Here's the Medal of Honor citation of one of numerous medics who've recieved it for their actions in saving their patients.

BUSH, ROBERT EUGENE

Rank and organization: Hospital Apprentice First Class, U.S. Naval Reserve, serving as Medical Corpsman with a rifle company, 2d Battalion, 5th Marines, 1st Marine Division. Place and date: Okinawa Jima, Ryukyu Islands, 2 May 1945. Entered service at: Washington. Born: 4 October 1926, Tacoma, Wash. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as Medical Corpsman with a rifle company, in action against enemy Japanese forces on Okinawa Jima, Ryukyu Islands, 2 May 1945. Fearlessly braving the fury of artillery, mortar, and machinegun fire from strongly entrenched hostile positions, Bush constantly and unhesitatingly moved from 1 casualty to another to attend the wounded falling under the enemy's murderous barrages. As the attack passed over a ridge top, Bush was advancing to administer blood plasma to a marine officer Iying wounded on the skyline when the Japanese launched a savage counterattack. In this perilously exposed position, he resolutely maintained the flow of life-giving plasma. With the bottle held high in 1 hand, Bush drew his pistol with the other and fired into the enemy's ranks until his ammunition was expended. Quickly seizing a discarded carbine, he trained his fire on the Japanese charging pointblank over the hill, accounting for 6 of the enemy despite his own serious wounds and the loss of 1 eye suffered during his desperate battle in defense of the helpless man. With the hostile force finally routed, he calmly disregarded his own critical condition to complete his mission, valiantly refusing medical treatment for himself until his officer patient had been evacuated, and collapsing only after attempting to walk to the battle aid station. His daring initiative, great personal valor, and heroic spirit of self-sacrifice in service of others reflect great credit upon Bush and enhance the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service

Here's another such example:

PIERCE, FRANCIS JUNIOR

Rank and organization: Pharmacist's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy serving with 2d Battalion, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division. Place and date: Iwo Jima, 15 and 16 March 1945. Entered service at lowa Born: 7 December 1924, Earlville, lowa. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while attached to the 2d Battalion, 24th Marines, 4th Marine Division, during the Iwo Jima campaign, 15 and 16 March 1945. Almost continuously under fire while carrying out the most dangerous volunteer assignments, Pierce gained valuable knowledge of the terrain and disposition of troops. Caught in heavy enemy rifle and machinegun fire which wounded a corpsman and 2 of the 8 stretcher bearers who were carrying 2 wounded marines to a forward aid station on 15 March, Pierce quickly took charge of the party, carried the newly wounded men to a sheltered position, and rendered first aid. After directing the evacuation of 3 of the casualties, he stood in the open to draw the enemy's fire and, with his weapon blasting, enabled the litter bearers to reach cover. Turning his attention to the other 2 casualties he was attempting to stop the profuse bleeding of 1 man when a Japanese fired from a cave less than 20 yards away and wounded his patient again. Risking his own life to save his patient, Pierce deliberately exposed himself to draw the attacker from the cave and destroyed him with the last of his ammunition Then lifting the wounded man to his back, he advanced unarmed through deadly rifle fire across 200 feet of open terrain. Despite exhaustion and in the face of warnings against such a suicidal mission, he again traversed the same fire-swept path to rescue the remaining marine. On the following morning, he led a combat patrol to the sniper nest and, while aiding a stricken marine, was seriously wounded. Refusing aid for himself, he directed treatment for the casualty, at the same time maintaining protective fire for his comrades. Completely fearless, completely devoted to the care of his patients, Pierce inspired the entire battalion. His valor in the face of extreme peril sustains and enhances the finest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service.

Sergeant Bob · Nov 2, 2003

When I retired from the A.F. in 1994, the qualification requirement was once per year. They were talking about changing it to once every three years (to save money). The purpose of qualification was not to build warriors (which is not going to happen), but familiarity with the weapons (strictly for SHTF scenarios). Unless people train with the weapons regularly, it's the best you can hope for. The fact is, most specialties in the A.F. do not involve the use of weapons. In other services, many people in non combat specialties are in the same boat (although they may have stricter qualification standards) and no amount of punching paper is going to turn them into warriors.
Should the qualification standards be higher? Definitely.

I'm sure there all of the people on this board who serve in the armed forces do so out of sense of duty and pride in service to one's country, so the following is not directed at those who do so.

There's a word for people who sign up for money: mercenaries. Their poor track record is nothing new.

As to people who join just for the money, I suppose technically you could call them mercenaries. People join for alot of reasons.
Some join for the educational benefits.
Some join to see the world.
Others join just because they want to kick some @$$.
Some join because they're tired of living in that little one horse town and need a break.
Everyone has a different reason for joining.
I joined because several of my friends were doing it, I think aircraft are really cool, and it seemed like a decent job. I guess that makes me a mercenary by your definition.

Why someone joins the military means little to me. It's what they do after they join that matters. The majority of them do serve their country proudly, and that's alot more important to me than whether their reason for joining was "out of sense of duty and pride in service to one's country"

Hkmp5sd · Nov 2, 2003

As to people who join just for the money, I suppose technically you could call them mercenaries. People join for alot of reasons.

I admit that I joined the military for the education. I was 17, finished high school, no money for college and no desire to spend the rest of my life working in a grocery store.

The Navy came along and told me if I'd agree to 6 years active duty, they'd give me an outstanding education and job experience in the nuclear power generation field. Of course, should I not be able to pass the schools and other requirements, I would be in violation of my contract and they owned me for the remainder of my service. We both kept up our side of the bargain and parted company under friendly terms.

The duty, pride, honor and loyalty came while serving in the military.

The reason someone joins the military isn't really all that important. What is important is your actions while serving in the military.

MarineTech · Nov 2, 2003

Maybe I could be considered a bit "harsh" in our modern "enlightened" society. But as a former Marine sergeant, if I had heard a potential recruit or Officer candidate make the comments "No, I don't like guns" and "I'd just run" I would feel it was my duty to explain to the person (I don't care if it's male or female) that they have made a pi** poor career decision. I would also point out that even in a non-combat MOS, you may be exposed to enemy action (think the Jessica Lynch debacle).

I would then feel obligated to identify and seek out this individual's recruiter and kick their posterior up around their ears.

C.R.Sam · Nov 2, 2003

Put a rifle in her hand under enemy fire and she may just make herself into something to be proud of.

Highly unlikely unless she has become familiar with the weapon.
Under fire is not the time to learn.
It is cheating your service mates.

Sam

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