Just had a visit from the ATF & Homeland Security!!!

Being honest is probably the best thing to do, but if you read the article posted by almostfree, you will see that the origin of these inquiries seem to be guns found in Mexico that were used in a crime. They then traced those guns back to the US, and then to the OP.

So, maybe they were investigating the 'dealer', but more realistically they were investigating the gun itself and all of its previous owners, including the OP. So, I think you also need to be careful, because they were surely suspect of the OP. The OP having all of the documentation is a good thing, and is a good lesson for all of us.

Their pitch was that they were investigating a dealer. They could have also said, "A gun that you bought in 2006 was used in a crime in Mexico. What did you do with that gun?" That statement probably closer reflects the truth, and has a different connotation.

Sounds like both sides handled it well. Hopefully, if the FFL is a dirty one, they can take him down. Shady FFLs make all of us look bad.

I did this kind of mind-game at work today.

We have a big clock which has broken, and seems to gain a minute a day. We had maint come and reset it two weeks ago and it is 15 minutes fast again (need a skyjack to get to it)

I want it replaced. People look at that to go to break, and look at the break room clock to go back to work (see the problem?)

I know if I just asked for it to be replaced, the manager who is in charge of ordering office furniture and stuff (the guy you have to see if you want a new desk, chair, monitor, etc) would kneejerk say 'no'

Instead I asked for a greaseboard to hang under it, and every couple days we'd update it with 'This clock is now 18 minutes fast' etc etc.

Of course he looked at me like I am a moron and said 'or, we could order a new clock, they are kind of spendy but I think it is a much better solution'

I say 'Okay, whatever you want.'





I think the BATF is quite aware of gun owners not liking them and being inclined to clam up.

I suspect that people who would clam up if you gave them a list of guns that they bought would instead be more than happy to show you how wrong you are if the list contains guns they did not buy.

The BATF guys may well have made a copy of the original, doctored the copy, copied it again, and approached you. They may really be intersted in the OTHER 3 guns, but get you to admit to buying them by including a 4th guy you didn't buy.

Being honest is probably the best thing to do,

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Unfortunately, being honest has landed a lot of people in jail unjustly because it gave an investigator a seed to work with.

Remember, investigators are NOT out to find the truth. They are out to find enough details of a crime to get a conviction. "truth" is in the hands of the Jury, and many jurors take the view of 'if there is smoke there must be fire, if the cops are looking at this guy he probably did it!'

also remember, information you give the police will NOT be used to help you. It is 'everything you say can and will be used AGAINST you in court' not 'everything you say can and will be used in court' (notice absence of against, which would allow for it being used both for and against you)

For all you know, that FN may already be in the possession of ATF or the Federales. I don't see anything that would harm you in proving (from your receipt) that you did not purchase it.

Maybe you shoulda said where the hell is my FN? LOL.

Interesting, glad everything went smoothly. If the dealer is trying to involve you in illegal transactions then I hope they slam the door on him. This makes all gun owners look bad.

I do have a couple of questions...

As it turns out I recalled everything about the transaction, and have the purchase receipt and details of the 3 guns involved, even though I no longer own any of the three. In fact, I have their serial numbers, purchase date, etc, as well as a photograph of all three guns.

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Did the agents not inquire about the three pistols you sold, and to whom you sold them?

I gave the agents the sales receipt, after making a copy for me, and provided them an affidavit of the facts of the sale, as I know them.

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Also, would they accept a copy of the receipts and leave the originals with you, or did they insist on the original receipts?

I wouldn't be having any talks with law enforcement, ESPECIALLY the BATFE, much less allowing them into my house or giving them documents, without a lawyer present.

Oh boy.... Here we go.... I knew it was a matter of time.....

DC300a said:

Oh boy.... Here we go.... I knew it was a matter of time.....

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Remember DC300a - Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to a federal agent about activities that were not criminal.

That's why lawyers advise people not to speak to any federal agent without your lawyer present. If there is a discrepency in the agent's notes the presence of a third party will shield you from the claim that you lied to the agent.

It's just a precaution for self protection. Rather like a CCW I suppose.

Remember DC300a - Martha Stewart went to jail for lying to a federal agent about activities that were not criminal.

That's why lawyers advise people not to speak to any federal agent without your lawyer present. If there is a discrepency in the agent's notes the presence of a third party will shield you from the claim that you lied to the agent.

It's just a precaution for self protection. Rather like a CCW I suppose.

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Talking to the police where you could conceivably be a suspect without a lawyer is simply foolish.

Richard Jewell tried to help the FBI and at least some of us know what happened to him.

In any investigation, the police are NOT your friends. If you don't protect your own legal and constitutional rights, NOBODY will.

"

Well, neither of these statements is true. Speaking as one, a federal agent's job IS to find the truth, not convict the first person they run into. Secondly, anything exculpatory that an investigator or prosecutor has, must be turned over to the defense during discovery.

There are lots of feds (including ATF agents, of whom I count a few as good friends) who are at least as pro-2A as anyone on this board.

I recently had a will made by my attorney. On the back of his business card he prints legal advice. One of them said "Never offer information to a police officer if your name is brought up in an the investagation" and then it explains why. You don't know them and they don't know you. Nothing weird about it, just a safe haven.

Well, neither of these statements is true. Speaking as one, a federal agent's job IS to find the truth, not convict the first person they run into. Secondly, anything exculpatory that an investigator or prosecutor has, must be turned over to the defense during discovery.

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It's SUPPOSED to be, but of course isn't always, and sometimes intentionally so. You may have heard of Mike Nifong.

BATFE in particular has a problematic past in this regard. In fact, they once went so far as to produce an OFFICIAL training video in which they EXPLICITLY directed agents to lie under oath regarding the NFA record keeping system. Their record in terms of Brady is horrendous.

There are lots of feds (including ATF agents, of whom I count a few as good friends) who are at least as pro-2A as anyone on this board.

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Apparently they weren't the BATF agents whom Louis Katona encountered.

Talking to the BATFE without a lawyer present is as foolish as sharing needles or having unprotected sex with five strangers a night.

I'm 100% with Dean, as usual. No warrant, no subpoena, no business. It is not my job to make their job easier.

I guess we are never going to know for sure, but if the agents were just SAYING that any given dealer added a gun to someone's 4473 multiple purchase, we would probably take them at their word. Why any savvy, but crooked, gun dealer would add a gun to the ONLY thing that would draw attention (a multiple handgun purchase, which they are required to report at the time of sale), would be the stupidest dumb crook thing they could do. If they wanted to "add" a rifle that was being sold illicitly, it would be "hidden" better on a purchase of a shotgun or rifle, which are NOT reported as multiple sale (at least not to my knowledge...it may NOW be required!). It may be a ruse, to get gun buyers to cough up info. What if no "probable cause" even existed for them to be talking to you, what if they had NO info that you OR the dealer did anything wrong, but just wanted to snoop? What they did is what I would do if I wanted to scam you into giving up records or information, but had no legal reason to COMPEL you to surrender it. It would make their job very easy, to trick you into co-operation.

. .

carbine85 said:

The fact that they had the forms just goes to show that the Fed knows who has what unless it's a private transaction.
Kinda scary

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They only way they got them is from going to an FFL and getting them. The "Feds" don't have them, at all. No copy goes to them ... it's all retained by the FFL, until such time as he goes out of business.

They know which FFL to go to to find out where a particular gun went because the manufacture keeps records on the distributor sales (by serial number), and the distributors keep track of what FFL got what.

Remember the first 15 minutes of "Red Dawn" .... "Go to all the sporting goods and hardware stores, get the forms 4473. That will tell us who has all the guns."

Original by walker944:
The moral to the story is KEEP GOOD RECORDS OF ALL YOUR GUN TRANSACTIONS, you never know when they might come in handy.

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There's no moral to the story. OK, so what if you didn't have records?

Yes, we must carefully watch out for rebels who preach . . . . .

. . . statements about the right to be armed, and refusing to incriminate ones's self by being cajoled into making any statements. If you've done nothing wrong, then say nothing. Could lead to revolt against the King. Walker94, if that all " seems a little too reactionary and weird to me", then please don't take a position behind me when the 2d Revolution begins, over the 2d amendment. Stand beside me. Molon Lave.

Bruegger said:

"Remember, investigators are NOT out to find the truth. They are out to find enough details of a crime to get a conviction. "truth" is in the hands of the Jury, and many jurors take the view of 'if there is smoke there must be fire, if the cops are looking at this guy he probably did it!'

also remember, information you give the police will NOT be used to help you. It is 'everything you say can and will be used AGAINST you in court' not 'everything you say can and will be used in court' (notice absence of against, which would allow for it being used both for and against you)​

"

Well, neither of these statements is true. Speaking as one, a federal agent's job IS to find the truth, not convict the first person they run into. Secondly, anything exculpatory that an investigator or prosecutor has, must be turned over to the defense during discovery.

There are lots of feds (including ATF agents, of whom I count a few as good friends) who are at least as pro-2A as anyone on this board.

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You think these agents or this prosecutor were worried about the truth?? Watch this, then see how you feel.

http://www.infowars.com/malfunctioning-gun-sends-veteran-to-prison/

There are too many instances of ATFE, FBI and local law enforcement coming down HARD on average Joes for no other reason than they don't like guns or they think they’re hard asses and above the law. I'd give ATFE any info they wanted, through my lawyer. There's no upside to helping them without legal protection. If that gun dealer produces a forged doc with or even without you signature, well then, they can believe you and prosecute him, OR, they can decide to go after BOTH of you and see what sticks. THATS WHAT THEY WILL DO, they don't care about you, they are polite and friendly until you make a request to have representation present, and then they threaten you with warrants and intimidate you, they scare you into not even wanting a lawyer. Seen it happen to people many times.

When the BATF is involved I would have shut up and lawyered up. But it is your neck and you did what you thought was right so I hope it turns out ok for you and bad for the guy who forged the paperwork.

so did you loose these guns you payed for?

I owned a gunshop years ago and some time passed after I properly closed it and turned in my FFL when two IRS agents showed up at my home… they were investigating a former customer that had bought a lot of firearms from me (normal run of the mill S&W revolvers for his collection). They made it very clear right up front that I was not being investigated for anything and that they had questions specific to that customer. He was a well known businessman that owned a medical related company… turns out he wrote company checks for all of his purchases to my shop and made the payable line out to just the initials of my store (instead of writing “Henry’s Gun Store” he just made them out to “HGS”… then took a tax deduction as a business expense stating the payable HGS stood for “Home Geriatric Services”).

My point being – when you have two federal agents (much less IRS) show up at your front door, it is difficult to instantly switch into “talk to my lawyer” mode… you know you haven’t done anything wrong and you know at that moment all you want is for them to leave satisfied you are not a bad guy (and quickly).

It’s flashback to being a kid and my mom yelling my first AND middle name for me to come right now… “yes Mom, no Mom, may I be excused before I admit to something you aren’t even asking about Mom” mode.