Guy with Gun at Tampa Town Hall Meeting

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travellingJeff said:
I plan on attending a meeting held by Arlen Specter, my "state senator". It's at a townhall and no amount of Secret Service goons, PSP thugs or wishy-washy administrators can go against my god given, and PA backed, right to carry where I please.
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Which one Jeff?

Of the four scheduled for next week, two of them are on private property. Lebanon's will be at HACC, and and Lewisberg's will be at Bucknell.

The one being held at Penn State's campus is still up in the air as far as the courts in PA are concerned.


But in Pennsylvania, private property owners may most certainly deny you entrance to carry where you please. If you refuse to leave or take your gun off their property, its trespassing.
 
*doh*

My female friend was supposed to do the recon on this. Any idea where I can find the schedules? I wouldn't care about going onto Penn State property CC'ing. I've done that for years ;-)
 
I couldn't help but think, while reading this thread, of the scene in "Taxi Driver" where Travis is at a Political Rally and asks the Secret Service agent if he's carrying concealed.
 
Tampa? Vest? Heat? Gun belt? Please. He was carrying. As a matter of fact, there are four people in that picture that are carrying.
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Unless you see 4 guns, you have no idea who is carrying (other than the uniformed LEO).



As to the OP,

all I can say is: Nunya.

Nunya stinkin' business.
 
I couldn't help but think, while reading this thread, of the scene in "Taxi Driver" where Travis is at a Political Rally and asks the Secret Service agent if he's carrying concealed.
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Yeah, that scene popped into my head as well.
 
I figure three.

Yoda (who I am presuming was carrying, and is behind the bearded man)
The guy in the shooting vest
The uniformed cop
 
It is obvious that the only person in the photo who is carrying a concealed weapon is the blond lady with the white shirt.
 
Unless you see 4 guns, you have no idea who is carrying (other than the uniformed LEO).
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I do, actually. I was there and saw four guys with guns. Maybe there was more?
 
All gun owners are not alike. The simple varity on this forum alone should tell you that.
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Amen. Just because we both have guns doesn't mean you can come over and, uh, play scrabble with my sister.
 
Yeah Yoda didn't you show your secret decoder ring first? So what you guys are saying is that if somebody is practicing the second amendment don't try and use the first?! It really wasn't his business to do what he did but it also isn't yours. I don't think he started the thread to see what your opinion is about talking to somebody that was carrying. If it were me that he walked up to and asked if I was carrying I would have probably told him I was. I am pretty sure that somebody about to jump you doesn't ask you if you have any weapons first. Like I said I agree it isn't any of his business but it is still a free country.
 
^^^

What he said.


It's boggling to the mind how people who are on a firearms board would be offended if someone, in real life, asked them if they partook in the hobby! Cripes, Id be scared to meet some of ya in real life.

"Hey Buddy, didja bring your gun so we could hit up the range"

"CODE RED! *CLICK* HOW DARE YOU! *BANG*"


Seriously, guys. I wouldn't ask someone that, but I wouldn't care if someone asked me. And, if I did, I'd tell them to buzz off. Who cares?

How many of us sitting here complaining about the OP are actually out at these events? How many videos exist of us at rallies, either directly pro-RKBA or just anti-statist in general? Maybe it's time to do more and nitpick less.
 
Seems to me a number of people are getting their shorts in a knot over this. In that situation, if I am so obviously packing that someone asks me if I have a gun, I don't have a valid reason to become crazed. I can either answer or not and I would probably answer, adding that I have a permit. Calmly put out the fire, don't throw gasoline on it. I would then repair to the nearest men's room to make adjustments so the question wasn't repeated.

As far as badge-on-a-belt goes, I'd rather have it there. I don't care what the cops on TV do; I don't want anything around my neck in a bad situation. That's why cops wear clip-on ties and most forces did away with Sam Browne cross-straps, for crying out loud.

Of course, my answer to all this type of nonsense is open carry. No more coats in the Texas summer, no more uncomfortable IWB holsters, no more "snubbie-down-the-leg," no more silly questions ("Yes, ma'am, I am carrying a pistol. No, ma'am, I am not a policeman. Yes, ma'am, I do have the legal right to carry a gun. Have a nice day.").
 
I've never been asked. But if I was asked by someone I didn't recognize as a cop I might say. What, are you writing a book? Get away from me! Or I might say. No. Or Hell yeah! Depends on the situation. I don't want to be asked, so don't ask me!

I can't see myself as the asker.
 
travellingJeff said:
*doh*

My female friend was supposed to do the recon on this. Any idea where I can find the schedules?
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You can find it right on Arlen Specter's official senate website.


travellingJeff said:
How many of us sitting here complaining about the OP are actually out at these events? How many videos exist of us at rallies, either directly pro-RKBA or just anti-statist in general? Maybe it's time to do more and nitpick less.
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I've found I had myself filmed many times at RKBA rallies. I've even been officially interviewed at them for print, radio, and television over the years.


The difference is these rallies aren't about RKBA. The #1 issue at this summer's round of town hall meetings has been about economics and pending health care legislation. If I got asked if I was carrying a gun at a RKBA rally, the answer would depend on who's asking and how they asked me the question. But I'd certainly be more accepting of that question being asked in that setting.

If I got asked that question in some other setting, I'd want to know who you are and why you're asking me that question.


3pairs12 said:
Yeah Yoda didn't you show your secret decoder ring first? So what you guys are saying is that if somebody is practicing the second amendment don't try and use the first?!
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This isn't about 1st amendment rights. Its about politeness, privacy, and manners.

If I were at an abortion rally, or a church revival, I'd expect someone might ask me if I'd found Jesus. Outside of those sorts of settings, I regard a stranger asking me that question as intrusive and rude.

If a stranger approached me and asked if the woman on my arm was my wife, I'd politely want to know who he was and why he felt it was any of his business as well.


This isn't about the 1st amendment. This is about manners.

I guess about the only way I'd broach that question in that situation is I'd introduce myself and ask if this gruff-looking man was working security there first. Depending on how the interaction went, I might or might not point out his gun had become exposed, and see how things went from there. He might not even give a damn, and since in Pennsylvania we have no requirement to keep it concealed, its none of my business to persuade him otherwise.
 
^^
What he said, as well.


We've got to recognize the difference between an impolite question and an actual impingement of our rights. If someone asks me if I'm carrying, it's like them asking if I've got a cigarette lighter or any other item. Usually, I'll answer politely. I feel no compulsion to answer them or, if I choose to, to be polite about it. I don't particularly agree with the notion that I'm required to act as an ambassador of the RKBA community while I'm carrying, but I was raised to be honest and respectful.
 
Jeff,

My opinion on the matter is no good can come from sharing that information.


I don't know who the person is asking that question. If I'm going to answer it, I want to know who they are and why it matters to them. There are other downsides to answering that question besides someone inclined to do violence upon us.

There are people with agendas, and people with irrational fears. The person you tell might blurt it out to the entire room and give you a hard time over it. He or she might go discreetly tell an Officer, and they may or may not be truthful in their account of how they leanred you had that gun on you.


But besides all this . . . . the original question was:

Yoda said:
One thing that bothered me was the large number of police officers (or secret service?) who were not in uniform and who could not be identified as sworn officers. What would be the impact if I got into a shoving match with someone who appeared to be a civilian, but then identified himself as a cop?
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What good can come from getting into a shoving match at all, regardless of who those people are?


It's a public venue.
There are obviously Peace Officers there working security.
Go find one, and let him establish order.
If you're kept out, request to see the shift supervisor and ask why. Ask to be admitted. If you are still refused admittance without a good reason, get his/her name and make an appointment with the Chief the next morning.
Document everything. I see plenty of video cameras there. Film it, then call the media the next day. Post it on Youtube.


My Lord, let's use our heads here.


If they, whoever they are, really wanted to keep you people with your opinions out of the room, what makes you think forcing your way inside to express them will matter? If they are that opposed having you inside, any dissenting opinion that does make its way inside will fall on deaf ears.
 
Did you actually SEE the guns? If not, you may well be mistaken.
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No, I actually SAW the guns. I could have plucked one of them right out of the holster if I had wanted to. Wasn't sure if they were cops, undercover, private security, or just guys with guns. Leaning towards more of the former than the latter, but you never know.
 
I'm surprised...

Having read the comments so, far, all I can say is that it seems that I'm on a different wavelength than most of you.

Here's two points, though:

First, if I discretely (repeat, discretely) say to someone, "You're carrying, aren't you?" then there are several potential outcomes:

He's a sworn officer: Worse thing he might do is tell me I'm interfering in police business. Most likely outcome is that he will ignore me. There probably aren't any best-case outcomes, except that he might try to be less obvious next time.

He's a private citizen with no evil intent: Worse thing he might do is tell me to bug off. OK, so he thinks I'm rude or nosey. Most likely outcome is that he might ignore me. Best case is that some like-minded individuals end up discussing where he got the nifty vest and other issues that gunnies often share, or that he acknowledges that his carry method is too obvious.

He's a private citizen with evil intent: Worst thing he might do is go blitzo right there, at a time and place that probably does not suit his purpose. Best case is that he gets cold feet and abandons his plan.

Second. as far as the advice to not get into shoving matches in the first place: Guys, at this time, I wasn't aware of the man in St Louis who was roughed up and sent to the hospital, presumably by some union enforcers. I WAS aware that a crowd of us in Tampa were at the doorway, being loud but not violent, when a number of large burly men (and angry women with their fingernails held out like claws) suddenly charged us and pushed several guys to the floor and against the wall. When everything was over, one of the men had his shirt torn and his chest scratched. If the guys who did this were cops, then I could acccept that they got carried away or that the guy who got roughed up was not being compliant, but they never identified themselves one way of the other.

Should we have backed away on the ASSUMPTION that the aggressors are cops, or should we stand our ground like free men?

I used to have a girl friend who lived in Madrid during Franco's reign. She said that you would occasionally see someone on the street suddenly get surrounded by guys in cheap suits, who would then beat the bejeezus out of the victim. No one ever tried to help the victim, because it was always assumed that the thugs were government men and the beating had been sanctioned.

Should we also stand aside and let union thugs beat us, too, on the assumption that someone has approved the action?

I'll stand aside for a cop, if I know it's a cop, because I know that there are some options to redress any grievances later. However, I won't get shoved around by ACORN ex-cons, SEIU enforcers, or liberals who can't stand to see or hear me.


- - - Yoda
 
Well, your possibility matrix leaves out a LOT of possible outcomes.

But anyway, that's not the point of your thread.

Yoda said:
Should we have backed away on the ASSUMPTION that the aggressors are cops, or should we stand our ground like free men?

. . . .

I'll stand aside for a cop, if I know it's a cop, because I know that there are some options to redress any grievances later. However, I won't get shoved around by ACORN ex-cons, SEIU enforcers, or liberals who can't stand to see or hear me.
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Did anything I wrote suggest you roll over? Did anything I wrote suggest you allow yourself to take a beating?

If you want to be a peaceful activist, learn to act like one. Non-violence. Non-violence. Non-violence.

If you want to be heard and respected as a concerned citizen at a public meeting, and can act peacefully, stand with me. If you want to get involved in crowded shoving matches, you're on your own.


I asked a question. What good can come from getting into a big shoving match, regardless of who's doing the shoving? Reflect upon it for a bit and see if you can come up with one.


Hey, its your choice to make. Do whatever you want. But if your mind's made up on how you'll behave anyway, why ask us? Don't get annoyed when you hear others think retaliation or the same sort of response to violence is a good idea. Especially when there are Police already there on the scene whose job it is to keep order.
 
How do we find out about other similar events in the Tampa area. Is there a website or something?

I received a thing on Facebook with about 5 hours notice. There has to be a better way.
 
florida

you do know that at least one man was beaten and was treated at the hospital.and several were arrested for assault.
if I was at a club I might ask if a person was carrying.in a town meating no way,you seem to have outed the carrier to the police.you gave the apperance of being a busy body.observe and keep to your self.
on ann coulters web one is the lady that took film and its on you tube.you might go there.:rolleyes::uhoh:
 
It's boggling to the mind how people who are on a firearms board would be offended if someone, in real life, asked them if they partook in the hobby!
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Concealed (or open) carry as the man in the vest is operating isn't a hobby. You may make it a hobby, but it is an exercise of one of the rights we were born with. The second amendment isn't about hobbyists, and this wasn't the range.

By sidling up and saying "I've marked you" to anyone in any manner is unnecessary. At best you invade the privacy of an individual with your voyeurism, at worst, you interfere with law enforcement.
 
The Constitution isn't an exclusive list of our only rights, it's a mentioning of our most important ones. As we've all got rights to own firearms, so do we all also have the right to own motorcycles, or oil paint, or race horses. If I saw a person in public with an easel set up doing oil paintings, I'd feel no qualms walking up to him and asking them about their artwork. I see no difference.

What if an Amish individual were present and someone asked them about their faith? Or a Buddhist monk? Is that "offensive" to do? I fail to see how.

Also, where do you feel your "right to privacy" exists in public to a degree that people aren't allowed to ask you questions? You've got every right to ignore them, to walk away, to answer how you feel, I'd even say you've got a right to tell them to "buzz off". Since we're talking about "rights" versus "hobbies", perhaps you could look directly above the Second Amendment and see what that paragraph might state about asking individuals, in a public location, questions?

I'm not saying that the question might have not been in the best of taste, or that I'd do it, but I'd also not chastise someone for asking that question of me. It's amazing to watch how we've got posts in "LEGAL" as to how individuals are trying to mention the sport/hobby/right of firearms to as many people as they can to get them involved, and others would be offended if someone asked them.

I'm also a bit confused as to how this "interferes with law enforcement". Do I not have the right to speak with law enforcement? How can you preach about rights, yet stipulate that speaking with a officer about his firearm somehow interferes with his ability to do his job?

I'm just completely lost, here. I carry a gun, a pocketknife, and a cell phone (among other things) with me daily. If someone asked me about any of those, or about an interesting location that I've traveled to, or anything really, other than an obviously rude and offensive questions, I wouldn't feel offended.

YMMV, of course.
 
I lost count at three strawmen. It is clear you are completely lost here.

Let me spell it out for you:

Good taste and carry etiquette dictate that concealed means concealed; don't ask me about something I'm trying to conceal. That is the work of busybodies.

If you are sticking your nose in something concealed (legality and public safety notwithstanding), you will be told to stand down.

If it's openly carried, feel free to try to impress me with the knowledge of your hobby pursuits.
If it's concealed, I'm not interested in hearing you talk about it.
 
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