S&W Victory model questions?

The price you paid is probably right for a non navy gun. There is a 100% premium for guns marked U.S. NAVY on the topstrap, a collector would want a factory letter to confirm it isn't a fake.

Almost certainly made in 1942, only a factory letter will confirm that.

Yes. Spend $50, increase guns value by $500.

I can't tell you about the holster. Possibly Oro or Saxon Pig will know.

Yes, it is a 'long action' S&W. They have the best trigger pulls of any revolver I've ever tried.

Victory models are the S&W .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 4th change manufactured for the US government during WWII, 242,291 in total were made. Caliber was .38 Special, finish was either black magic (parkerizing) or sand blast blue. The grips and lanyard ring are standard for the gun. 4 inch was the normal barrel length.

Victory Models were made concurrently with the British Service Revolver in .38 S&W with a five inch barrel and share the same serial number range.

There was a fatality in 1944 when a gun was dropped on it's hammer, causing it to discharge, resulting in a redesign with a hammer block. So don't drop your gun on its hammer.

Nickel plating and plastic pearl grips is the traditional way to bubba a valuable collectors item.

Did I over pay at $500?

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You made out like a bandit - especially with U.S. Navy markings.

Any idea when it was made?

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Between March 1942 through Feb. 1943

Is the factory letter worth the $50

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The value of the gun with the letter is greater then the letter's cost. It provides absolute documentation.

Is this the holster it was issued with?

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Most likely - it's a style the Navy used. But there are many reproductions out there. Look for markings on the back.

Is such a spectacular action typical of this gun or did I just get a ringer?

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It has Smith & Wesson's famous "long action." All were exceptionally good, but some were more exceptional then others.

Anything else you can tell me about my new Smitty?

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If you go out and shoot it, avoid Plus-P ammunition, and load the cylinder with five rounds and rest the hammer on the empty one. It was made before S&W introduced a positive hammer block.

The Victory Model .38 Special design originated with the Navy when they purchased 3000 revolvers just before the war. Apparently some of the Navy marked revolvers ended up with the O.S.S. Yet another reason to get it lettered.

She's in fantastic shape for her age. Just enough character to see that it's a vet but not so beaten that it looks to be the victim of abuse.

I'd say you've got a winner there. I would dearly love to add one like yours to my own collection.

There is very good information above, but I'll add a comment on a few vague points, and some thoughts on Victories (US) in particular:

Carbon 15 said:

It is a navy gun. Its marked on the left side of the topstrap.

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These were frequently faked, that is what they mean. But see the notes and photo below and you can be almost certain it isn't faked w/o a letter. The fakes were designed to fool noobs at gun shows in the '80s, not the collector or educated observer in the internet age. While they exist, they are pretty obvious.

Value: I think you got a good deal, but not crazy - but it might proove to be that good over time, depending upon where the market for these fantastic guns really goes. I do NOT see Victories trade at what is stated in the SCSW. I have seen two Naviesoffered in the last nine months in as good a condition as yours, from different vendors, both $300 delivered (take a guess where they were delivered). And I have seen some collectible dealers ask $900 for non-Navy guns as nice as yours. So it's all over the map. $500 for a gun that nice and Navy is indeed a good deal, and safely under the nose-bleed collectors that your money is safe. Compared to WWII 1911 prices, US Victories are WAY undervalued - there were only around 1/4 million made in total for the US in .38 Special during the war (compare this to the 2 million or so 1911s made). The quality on them is generally higher than most war time 1911s, and they are much more pleasant to shoot (I LOVE my 1911s. I'm just being honest here). They are ridiculously undervalued and I think any original, very good or better condition true US .38 Special victory 4" revolver you find under $400 should go into your collection, Navy marked or not. Beware of cut-downs, 5" barrels and converted .38 S&W calibers ones - skip those. Keep in mind non-US victories outnumber US ones 2:1. Once the market wakes up to this, I expect more consistently high prices.

Provenance: As to getting it lettered, it will enhance resale, but to a someone who knows these guns, it will be obvious if it is a real Navy on examination. The reason is that the Navy roll markings were under the proprietary S&W "Black Magic" finish. This finish is just not possible to easily "fake" as it is not like parkerizing, and it appears your gun has the original finish (partly this is proven by the negative - the ejector rod is blued, which is how they came). If the marks are under the finish, and they look like the one below, you can relax about faked markings. Faked markings are usually cruse, and left in the white or filled with a different finish.

Grips: Remove your grips and make sure they serial to the gun (inside right panel, samped into the wood). That the grips are shrunken a little is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean they aren't authentic - some shrunk over time, others didn't. It just wasn't consistent.

Of quite a few S&W's I've owned and shot, the most consistent in accuracy was not a 28, 27, 29, or any other high-end or target gun. It was a 1942 Navy marked Victory.

If you have any interest in occasionally carrying it in the field, a WWII "Pilot's Holster" is good. Vintage ones are pricey, Vietnam era ones still affordable. Either is a better option than the reproduction ones Pacific Canvas and leather has children in China make and they import (these are the ones Cabela's sells). They look right at a distance, but the fit is bad (it is too large 0 it actually fits a 5" L frame (if such a thing was common), but not a fixed-sight 4" K frame. Custom makers can create a very nice one for you too, like El Paso Saddlery.

US Navy markings (most common; other variations known), from coolgunsite.com. If you look carefully you can see clearly how the finish is even and consistent between the flats and the engraved areas. This is just not possible to fake without refinishing the whole gun, this a) defeats the purpose of creating a cheap fake, and b) isn't actually possible without it being totally obvious and mismatched to the real Black Magic finish.:

Did I over pay at $500?

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I'd say you got a good deal. Nice looking shooter.

My dad was a Naval Avaitor in Viet Nam and occasionally carried one of these on missions. He's also told me about grabbing one of these WW2 era shooters out of box full of them to do his regular qualification shoots.

I've been looking for nice one to give him, but the only ones I have seen around here have been really worn out, or the markings were obviously added much later . . .

You done GOOD !

I'll bet you bought it in Columbia, I looked at it last Thursday, and thought about buying it.It should make you a good shooter.

Total production of the Victory Model was c. 811119. Production of the so-called pre-Victory is less precise; the first contract started with # 612000, but commercial production continued. The usual number given for the start of exclusive contract pre-Victory production is c. 700000.

As serial numbers approached 1 million, S&W had a problem since their numbering equipment was limited to six digits. They decided to use a prefix letter, which could be stamped on all guns before the serial was applied, and someone chose "V" for Victory, echoing a common slogan of the time. The first Victory Model was made April 24, 1942.

At first, all production of pre-Victory and Victory Models was for the British in .38 S&W caliber and so marked. After February 1941, S&W began producing some pre-Victory Models for the U.S. in .38 Special caliber, and in April 1942, the British contracts were taken over by the U.S. under lend-lease. From that point, all the guns were "U.S. Property" marked, and production for the British and the U.S. was intermingled. Guns produced for the U.S. itself were marked the same way, and were identical except for being in .38 Special caliber. (.38 S&W was not in the U.S. supply system.)

The new hammer block was installed starting at V769001, and the letter "S" was added to the marking. It was not actually part of the serial, simply indicating the presence of the new safety device, and the guns continued to be considered Victory Models.

After the war, S&W dropped the "V" marking, but kept the S, now considered part of the serial. The first pre-war gun was S811120; numbers continued to S999999 when the same old problem arose and they began the "C" prefix series.

Jim

Here's the one I got at the end of May (also a Navy):

Hi Jim,

The first pre-war gun was S811120; numbers continued to S999999 when the same old problem arose and they began the "C" prefix series.

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I think you mean...'the first post-war Gun...'

I have V77,000 shipped August of 1942 to Springfield Armory as a Navy contract gun. Yours will letter exactly the same except for a slightly later date. I would not spend $50 to learn what I already know.

$500 seems to be the current collector price on these. I am not a collector so I would not pay this much for one but that's me. You seem happy with it and that's all that matters.

About the positive hammer block and Old Fuff's recomendation to not carry with six rounds loaded, some Victory models were retrofitted with the hammer block. There would be an 's' stamed on the sideplate or on the side of the frame. A gunsmith would be able to tell you for sure.

At least, this is my understanding. Old Fuff can most certainly correct me if I'm wrong.

You are right up to a point. For a short time S&W stamped a little "S" on the sideplate so they could tell them from earlier plates. The more common practice was to add an "S" to the serial number stamped on the butt. If there is a question do have a qualified gunsmith check. All he needs to do is cock the hammer and look. The modified guns, as well as those made with the new hammer block, have a slightly different hammer then earlier revolvers.

Do you have an image of what a the newer hammer would look like?

I have a Victory that predates the 's' in the serial number, but has an 's' stamped on the side of the frame below the sideplate. I would be curious to see exactly what the difference looks like so I can be sure about my gun.

Hi, Oyeboten,

Yup, you are right. I meant post-war.

FWIW, it is the common belief that the M&P had no hammer block safety before the "S" series Victory Model. That is not true. S&W used two different hammer block safety designs in which the hammer block was forced into the sideplate as the hand was moved up by the trigger. The first type, installed in the M&P from 1915 to late 1926, used a hammer block that was its own spring; a plunger operated by the back of the hand forced the hammer block into the sideplate. The plunger spring also acted as the hand spring. The second type, 1926 to 1944, also used a hammer block that was its own spring and was forced back into the sideplace by a ramp on the hand. Both worked OK as long as the gun was clean but both depended on springs and if they were held back by dirt or hardened grease, or if the spring broke, the block would not protrude. In other words, they were not "positive" in their action, like the Colt hammer block, a point Colt emphasized by using the name "Positive" for guns equipped with their safety device.

The new S&W hammer block safety, first installed in Dec. 1944, is powered by the rebound slide and is positive; if it cannot move up into place, the trigger cannot go forward, the cylinder can't be rotated, and the gun cannot be fired.

The second type hammer block safety of the early Victory Model can be seen by looking into the action as the hammer is cocked; it will move to the right into the side plate, rather than up and down as the new one does.

Jim

I have a Victory that predates the 's' in the serial number, but has an 's' stamped on the side of the frame below the sideplate. I would be curious to see exactly what the difference looks like so I can be sure about my gun.

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The "S" means that the sideplate was machined on the inside to take the current model hammer block.

If you take any numbered model (such as a model 10) you should notice a large notch cut out of the hammer face just under the hammer nose (firing pin). Your Victory Model should have that same notch.

Also be aware that there were - and still are - some brain dead individuals around that remove the hammer block to "improve the double-action trigger pull." Therefore the "S" on the sideplate, and a notch in the hammer face does not mean that the block is still installed in the gun, but if it is, and you cock the hammer, you should be able to see it with the help of a good flashlight or bright sunlight.

anybody know how mach worth a s&w victory model 38 special 4''barrel,nickel finish with all matching numbers.1923 85% grade

pitoloco83:
The victory model wasn't made in 1923, it would be a .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 4th Change with that date. These were available in nickel and blue.
The Victory model was manufactured from 1942 to 1945.
Apart from a very small number of guns the Victory model was not nickeled, any aftermarket nickeling would detract from it's value to a collector.

Post the serial number (replace the last three digits with xxx for privacy) and we will give you a date. Post pics for an estimate of value.

S&W .38 Victory Model Query

I have two Smith and Wesson .38 Victory model revolvers (5" barrels) with Serial Nos: V318480 and V576925. Both were used by British forces in India. Can anyone help me determine the likely year of production?

Um... they were all made 1942-45, so I would take a wild guess and say somewhere between 1942 and 1945.

Probably somewhere in the middle...

The problem putting an exact date on Smith & Wesson’s made before 1968 is the company made a practice of making and serial numbering frames, and then putting them into inventory. Sometime later - occasionally much later - the frames would be made into complete guns, but not necessarily in numerical order.

The only way to get an exact date is to pay S&W a $50.00 per gun research fee to go back and find the original shipping record for each particular gun. Considering the work involved the fee is more then reasonable. Additional information on an historical letter will be found on the S&W web site at:

www.smith-wesson.com

That said, I believe that the first gun (#V318480) was probably made around the Spring of 1943. The second one (#V576925) during early 1944.

This is nothing more then an educated guess. Smith & Wesson Historian, Roy Jinks may tell you something entirely different. If he should, believe him.

That said, I believe that the first gun (#V318480) was probably made around the Spring of 1943. The second one (#V576925) during early 1944.

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From my experience of the ones I have owned and others seen "lettered" - this sounds spot on, but again, just a guesstimate.

There are at least two things I have never excelled at. One is second guessing the U.S. Supreme Court, and the other is to make a flat-out statement as to when a particular Smith & Wesson handgun was made without checking with Roy Jinks first.