bushmaster or m&p ar-15

FlyinBryan, one of the posters over on M4C is an armorer for a PMC. They buy mostly BMs and he has documented all the problems with the rifles. One of the problems he has ran into is inconsistent chambers. I don't pull this stuff out of my rear. It is based off of either my personal experiences or the experiences of people whom I trust.

Click to expand...

im not saying that i dont believe you, but of all the things ive heard about in which bushmaster comes up short, that is by far the craziest.

i would like to see it for myself but i cant find anything on short chambered bushmasters at that site. can you link it or at least give me some search tips?

SHvar call up BM and ask. they will confirm that even though they mark all barrels as tested, they in fact only do batch testing. Some companies do this, some do not. I personally think they should only mark the barrels actually tested but it isn't my call.

For me this isn't a matter of favorites. I own a BM but not a S&W. I am simply arguing the merits of each. The OP asked which people would suggest between these two and I have given my opinion.

Bryan, check out this thread.

The barrels rusted because of he lack of Parking under the FSB and the chambers were to tight so had to be reamed out. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30857

My Bushy has been very reliable and cost a little less that the M&P

Bushmaster does not use double-heat-shield handguards on any rifle or carbine I've seen, and like I said, I own one of their recent (this year) production.

I also think the double heat shields are completely irrelevant on a semi-auto, unless your whole idea of shooting is continuous mag dumps.

The difference between buffer tube types is explained in painful detail in the tech info section of Magpul's website. I recommend taking a look. In general, commercial tubes are extrusions and mil-spec are forgings. The aluminum may be the same, but the way it's made can have an effect.

It's documented in various places that Bushmaster, along with most other AR manufacturers, does only batch testing of barrels. US laws do not require proof testing of each barrel, and with quality control it isn't much needed.

Most if not all of the details we're talking about here are 99.9% irrelevant to most people reading this board. If you want to get into the fine points of all these details I recommend you read M4carbine.net, which has extensive discussions on all details from people who really know them like the manufacturers, military and police armorers, and renowned instructors. If you really think that you need absolute perfection in every detail than you should be looking at $1500+ ARs from companies like Noveske. Did I mention (I know I did) that a tactical trainer I know has picked M&P15s as his favorite based on running 10's of thousands of rounds through them in his classes and competition and watching what works and fails in his classes? This is someone who has run any major (good) brand of AR you can think of.

please believe me when i say that i dont mean this as some sort of quip or tongue in cheek remark, its an honest to goodness question.

is that the same guy who told you that the remington r15 was just a bushmaster with a different roll mark?

he was asked if they measured 5.56, and all he said was they were "tight". im wondering if the guy was using a field gauge, a go, or a no-go.



i did a search over there and actually came up with more barrels from other companies with undersized chambers.

The man from MI speaks much wisdom

Regarding front sight post height; miine was in fact the correct height for a carry handle but too short for a BUIS. I had to order the taller post from BM and all is well.

"Bushmaster does not use double-heat-shield handguards on any rifle or carbine I've seen, and like I said, I own one of their recent (this year) production."

Really, mine has double heat shields, in fact the size of the handguard gives it away in an AR rifle. Single heat shield handguards are smaller, and the double shielded handguards are larger.

Bushmaster was sued by colt, in the lawsuit one point that colt brought up was the double heat shielded handguard, which Bushamster M4s all have.

"It's documented in various places that Bushmaster, along with most other AR manufacturers"

Amazing how if its so well documented why cant it be found anywhere aside from a few internet forums?

"call up BM and ask"

I did before I ordered my BM rifle, not what I was told.

"i did a search over there and actually came up with more barrels from other companies with undersized chambers"

Which again goes to show you that a few companies make almost all of the parts (barrels, recievers, etc) and the rest just add a few of their own parts to someone elses.
The problem with reminding others, that other companies are having more of the same problems than BM, is that it doesnt support their arguement that BM are inferior or second rate, they dont choose to acknowledge that these problems happen with their favorite brands.
Both companies rifles are great, both are far more than needed to be used in combat and have no problems period, and last for many many years.

Really, mine has double heat shields, in fact the size of the handguard gives it away in an AR rifle. Single heat shield handguards are smaller, and the double shielded handguards are larger.

Click to expand...

First time I've seen double heat shield handguards on a Bushmaster. Looking at the Bushmaster website I can only find one production model, the "optics ready carbine," that even has the M4 profile handguards, and it doesn't say whether they are double shielded. My M4A3 "patrolman's carbine" had skinny CAR handguards with a single heatshield:
http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWA3F16M4.asp

Since replaced with a Magpul MOE handguard. What year was yours produced?

lets get back on topic here guys.

I personally think that S&W makes a better rifle. However for a casual shooter both will probably be ok. If you aren't going to put a few hundred rounds downrange every week then the problems that I and others complain about with BM probably wont' be an issue.

The minister of misinformation has made an appearance here as well.

Lately I would say that S&W when compared to BM is making the superior AR.

I would also assume that bolts, barrels and anything else that is tested is batch tested unless otherwise informed. That' the way the industry is, it takes alot of man hours to do this testing and would be counter productive to do it on every single piece to be tested. That's why you usually pay extra for things that are individually tested.

The Bushmasters that I have seen and sold have all had the carbine handguards. They are smaller in diameter and have a slightly different contour than the "M4" style handguards that are in heavy use with other manufacturers.

I haven't sold BM in a couple of years and that could've changed. They seem to be priced higher than comparable models from their competition and in my opinion a lower value. They've had issues with canted front sights and undersized chambers in the past.

I know of one large(r) PD that uses them as their patrol rifle. I don't know what kind of track record they have but I can find out. I know they are an approved military contractor just like CMT(Stag), LMT and of course Colt to name a few.

For slightly more money, but still in the ballpark, take a look at the Daniel Defense XV or Charles Daly D-M4LE. A step up in my book and with much better barrels than either of those mentioned.

Does the double heat guard really matter? I thought you were supposed to take them off and put a quad rail on it with a flashlight, forward grip, long eye relief scope, laser with green and red beams, extra mag holder night vision, high rise scope mount and bi pod.

now I am really confused....


In the military I got a few so hot that the heat guard helped, but as a civilian I have never got one so hot it mattered, especially in the past year and a half with ammo prices. Even the Beta mag gets boring after 40 or 50 rounds. (no it's not for sale)

I looked at several BM M4s with double shields. The handguards were smaller than my GP rifle handguards, but a difference enough to notice when looking at 2 side by side.
This was one problem colt had during their lawsuit against BM.
Really it doesnt serve that much of an issue for LEO/civilian use to have single or double shields.
One of mine has a quadrail, but I like these factory handguards. This handguard also has rail sections to hold my flashlight.

Originally posted by SHvar:

if the markings indicate it was done on that barrel, it must have been done.

So who determined that these companies arent testing every barrel?

Unless someone verifies that either company is not testing each and every barrel then the markings indicating the testing is done are good enough.

In other words if someone can prove that each and every barrel or bolt is not tested then by all means do so.

For someone allege without proof that testing not being true to publish the opinion as fact is by law slander.

Click to expand...

Did you ever follow up on this?

SHvar call up BM and ask. they will confirm that even though they mark all barrels as tested, they in fact only do batch testing.

Click to expand...

You accuse me of slander but you never follow up? You mention in your original post wishing a thing were so. I think we know who's doing the wishing.

bushmaster dont headspace their stuff now.

lol, wow!!!!

just,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,wow.

Click to expand...

im wondering if the guy was using a field gauge, a go, or a no-go.

Click to expand...

and when I last left you, we had come so far....

The chamber issue is not a headspace issue. It is an issue of the chamber itself not being cut to the dimensions they claim, by marking their barrel, that it is cut to. (weird that we now have TWO barrel markings that are not truthful, both from the same manufacturer)

5.56 vs. .223 dimensions


Ned Christiansen of Michiguns makes both a .223/5.56? Gage and a 5.56 Reamer. The Gage is relatively new so most chambers that have been "checked" were done with the reamer. Material comes out = not a 5.56 chamber.

I have both a Bushmaster M4gery and an M&P M4gery and while the bushmaster is a good all around beater the Smith is something special- i have never had a single hiccup with it and the fit and finish is outstanding

Ok, I'm ready to get bashed for this one. Personally, I think just about all AR's are the same (excluding REAL M4's) and that the important parts you need to worry about are the bolt, headspacing and a good quality barrel in 5.56 with the correct rifling for your intended use. 99% of the average AR owner isn't going to heat up their barrels to the full auto beating that M4's do, and if you are that small percentage that can afford full auto and all that ammo, you're probably rich enough that you have 20 AR's and a minigun anyways.

Besides, for the military, the rifles are from the lowest bidder contractor who's rifle meets the very basic standards. Maybe special ops, snipers, operators, all the hardcore fellas tweak and customize thier own, but the vast majority doesn't, just using what was issued. M4 feed ramps there's no definitive advantage for a semi auto, its's more of a full auto insurance policy for that rapid feed. If you worry about handguards, buffer springs, different lower reciever styles/designs, you'll probably change or replace it anyways, thats the funnest part of the platform, the modularbility (sp?) I'm not bashing those who do, I do the same thing, and am pretty jealous of the guys who can afford to deck thiers out with the latest daniel defense or acogs. We can go on and on about about every slight detail, like the "wiggle" between the upper and lower. My service rifle I banged the crap out of for years (even snapped that front sight post overseas, dont know how but replaced by armorer) rattled like a snake and my last rifle qual I hit 8/10 at 500 prone.
Would I like a Noveske, or a LWCR, hell yes for show off and bragging rights, but out of my range right now. I just suggest focus on the barrel, caliber (5.56 or .223 might as well get the first, duh) , bolt, headspacing and proper rifling, the rest you can and prob will change. just my $.02 And let the bashing begin.....

**Oh and saying bushmaster is awesome and just better, isn't a legitamite arguement.

I am not going to flame you but your information is faulty. Like cars, all ARs are not made equal. Some things you said are correct however. A good Bolt, a good 5.56 barrel are important.

The problem is that a number of popular companies don't have either of those. Barrels marked 5.56 often aren't, as Rob was saying above this is a common issue. Iraqgun over on M4C ran into this a lot as an armorer with the BM guns he worked on. And as for bolts, far to many companies don't bother to take any time on bolts, no MPI no shoot peening, etc. Companies cut corners to save money and time. They figure it is fine for "casual" shooters. Sadly all it really does is muddy the waters.

You are also incorrect on how the Military selects a company to produce weapons. This "lowest bidder" junk has got to go. They select companies based on their ability to meet the TDP that is put out, as well as the companies ability to produce the weapon in the quantity desired, etc.

The problem with most companies that market to civilians right now isn't that they can't meet these specs, or even exceed them, it is that they choose not to. I am sure BM or DPMS can put out a good gun if they choose to. But they choose to cut corners so they put put what many consider sub par weapons for not that much less money than a company that does not cut corners. I wish all companies put out a weapon that was as good as a Colt 6920 or a DDXV, but they don't. And till they do I won't purchase one again.

Now I feel that I should address SHvar. I spoke to BM a while back. I needed to order a taller FSP since they don't use the right size FSB on their M4s. While I had the guy on the phone I asked him about the Barrel testing. He told me they test every one. I asked him if he was sure and he said he would check. 5 minutes later he came back and told me he was incorrect and that they do only batch test but they do mark every barrel as long as that batch passes. That kind of makes me wonder what the do if the barrel fails. Do they throw out the entire batch or just keep testing barrels till one passes and then mark them.

Have owned 4 Bushmasters and getting ready to buy a fifth...no issues, no malfunctions with any of them.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

For same price I'd get the M&P. If the M&P were $100 more I would get the Bushmaster.

Click to expand...

+1.

Own both.

I am sure BM or DPMS can put out a good gun if they choose to. But they choose to cut corners so they put put what many consider sub par weapons for not that much less money than a company that does not cut corners.

Click to expand...

Yes, and in fact I think some Bushmaster's are good - but per your and other comments, probably not all. And I'm sometimes surprised that some DPMS spare/replacement parts seem quite good, when I wouldn't think seriously about buying a DPMS rifle. As he says, lots of companies do cut corners. My suggestion is to figure out how solid an AR you want or need and then either buy a top-notch with few or no corners cut, or the best value of fewest cut corners for the lowest price.

they do only batch test but they do mark every barrel as long as that batch passes. That kind of makes me wonder what the do if the barrel fails. Do they throw out the entire batch or just keep testing barrels till one passes and then mark them.

Click to expand...

I have read about quality control schemes on other military-rifle contracts where a few X (barrels or whatever) are pulled from a batch and tested and if any fail the whole lot is rejected. So I would assume that they reject the entire batch if one fails. It would certainly be deceptive if they found one or more rejects, kept testing til one passed and then claimed the whole batch was OK.

I stand corrected Azizza, I guess I'm just still stuck back when the M16A2 was the main black beat-em-up infantry rifle was the M16, and the M4 carbines were only for the operators. Got me some reading and research to do!

M & P For me just for the cost if even more than the BM that what I like and trust....

Not that long ago I bought into the whole "they are all the same" or "just as good as" argument. I made a lot of excuses for problems with the guns I owned and sold. However people like Rob and grant got me to start doing real research and paying attention to the equipment I had. I realized that the problems I had were not a result of the platform but of not having the best parts. I sold most of what I had, upgraded one or 2 and purchased better stuff overall. My problems have all but gone away, I am happier with my equipment and I feel much more confident in my weapons. As I said before. Buy cheap, buy twice.