Why CZs aren't used by American LE Agencies?

If the whole DA/SA thing is so big of a deal they why does the army carry a Beretta 92?, CZ triggers seem to be generally held in high esteem on this board, even if they are a little long and take some getting used to.

That being said, I wish that some department got some then traded them in so I could pick up a CZ for cheap.......

Love the 2 I got, even with that long smooth trigger pull

Dr Rob, yes, Tanfoglio made the Jericho 941, the Witness, the Springfield P-9, TA-90, TZ-75, all Tanfoglios.

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Wrong, Jericho 941 made in Israel, not in Italy, several parts like trigger assembly and mags (periodically) are bought from Italy . First production line in Ramat a Sharon in 80th was made together with Tanfolio engineers.

CZ trying for a decade to win any military/le contract on the market. And time after time they failed . There is a reason for it.

Glocks production price in 2000 was about 75$, price for a piece in huge military contracts (like Norway or Austrian military) was about 150$ a piece . Sigs in this amounts a little more expensive as well as CZs.

Today the only LE agencies uses ORIGINAL CZ are Eastern European like Cz Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia etc.

More then 3 million Glocks were made from 198x, and only a bit more then 1 million of CZs since 1975.

To go in to the LE/Military company needs to provide Quality, Reliability, Support and Training for a decent price.

For a long period of time CZ pistols failed in this categories and only since P01 came in things started to change, but still the change came too late, and to slow.

Agencies wanted DA, HiCapa, Light weight polymers, reliable and cheap. Glocks, SW, Sigs and Berreta were there first, a decades ago.

What good for CZ National police not good enough for US Military and LE.
Why ? Asks CZ why elite CZ Army and police units uses GLOCK.

Sir, Tanfolgio told me that THEY supplied the frames AND slides for both the Jericho 941 AND the Baby Eagle, which were then assembled in Israel. That's information from the Tanfolgio factory. Also, the Sarsilmaz of Turkey was originally a Tanfolgio distributer, (again, from the Tanfoglio factory websiote, since removed), and branched out with thier own version, now imported to the US as the AR-24. Clone of a clone.
Remember the CZ-75, made in 1975, was manufactured behind the Iron Curtain, Glock was not. CZ-UB did not come into being as a company until 1992. CZ-USA, a wholly owned subsidiary of CZ-UB, came into being in 1997. I remember when Glock was first imported into the US, and that was well before that. They had thier foot in the door way before CZ came along, AND CZs were made in a country that had just re discovered capatilism, while Glock was made in Austria, a country that has been free since a few years after WWII, when the Allied occupation ended. If gen. Patton had been permitted to by Eisenhower, as he begged permission to do so, he would have taken Prague before the Red Army, and history would be a wee bit differant. So, given the CZ-75 was made in a country behind the Iron Curtain, export was a bit of a problem to most of the free world. There was a time when CZs commanded prices that would buy 4 Glocks at once. No less of an authority other than the late great Colonel Jeff Cooper said that if the US Army MUST go to a 9mm, it should be the CZ-75, stated that about 4 times in his book, "To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Tell The Truth".
I was told by some Israeli friends of mine that at one time the CZ and the Tanfoglio clone were quite popular in your home country, which is one reason they began importing the Tanfoglio frames and slides to make the Jericho and BE. Now maybe they make it all in house, but when I was quite close to Tanfoglio, that's what they told me. That was about 6-7 years ago, BTW.
Why does the Czech Special Forces use Glock and M-4s? Politics and money. Same reason the US military went to a foriegn made pistol, the Berreta, politics and money, same reason your country uses M-16/M-4 instead of Galils? BTW, the Czech Army is in the middle of a big upgrade on thier rifles, a new assault rifle. Made by CZ.
I certainly could be wrong, been wrong many times, just ask my wife.

Czech special forces:

"CZ trying for a decade to win any military/le contract on the market. And time after time they failed ."

Which decade? CZ guns have been used all over the world by police and military units. I personally own a CZ-75B Military made in 1996 that was an overrun on a contract for Turkey.

John

The problem is Law Enforcement can't afford the good stuff

Which decade? CZ guns have been used all over the world by police and military units. I personally own a CZ-75B Military made in 1996 that was an overrun on a contract for Turkey.

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Turkish military uses domestically made firearms. Part of `em CZ and HK clones.

CZ 75 line never were widely adopted by any big military force or country outside Eastern Europe. Rest is CZUSA advertising.

Sir, Tanfolgio told me that THEY supplied the frames AND slides for both the Jericho 941 AND the Baby Eagle, which were then assembled in Israel. That's information from the Tanfolgio factory. Also, the Sarsilmaz of Turkey was originally a Tanfolgio distributer, (again, from the Tanfoglio factory websiote, since removed), and branched out with thier own version, now imported to the US as the AR-24. Clone of a clone.

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I don't know about what Tanfolio said to you , but I got a pleasure to visit the former IMI Small Arms Division / these days IWI .

I was told by some Israeli friends of mine that at one time the CZ and the Tanfoglio clone were quite popular in your home country, which is one reason they began importing the Tanfoglio frames and slides to make the Jericho and BE. Now maybe they make it all in house, but when I was quite close to Tanfoglio, that's what they told me. That was about 6-7 years ago, BTW

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Actually production of Jericho line was a result of National Police contract for a new service pistol. Local private handgun market is extremely small. Its very hard to get a pistol license these days, so none will open a factory line for small local sales .

Its not a US here. To buy a gun you got to be army officer captain and above, ex-special forces reservist, living REALLY close to the borders (3km), or be a registrated IPSC sportsman - expensive sport.

Local market is TINY Its like to open a factory for Manhattan.

And yes the CZ, Glock, SmithWesson and Jericho are in the top of the sales pyramid here. Glock because of the ShinBet, CZ got excellent dealer, Jericho because of local police and PSC, and SW is US company - $ is cheap these days.

There are several very good reasons why military prefer Glock-HK-Sig-etc. Reliability for Money does matters. You just can`t beat them in 9mm.

As for a Galil , its clumsy , heavy, expensive AK clone, its like to take caterpillar D9 and to put on leather sits, diamond plated panels, and try to sell it to military. M4 is lighter, cheaper and got better accuracy .

It was adopted in the end of 70th and at this moment on the way out even from active reserves warehouses.:banghead:

Special Units are the real mirror of the situation. The can afford anything, even Belorussian KGB special Unit adopted Glocks 17 and Russians are buying Berretas and Glock etc for Federal LE, its like Fidel Castro driving BMW and wears Lee Jeans.


PS - Glocks are bulky, ugly but they get the job done.

I see you seem to have a disdain for CZ, as you seem to have disregarded quite a bit of my answer to you. Forgive me, but it also seems you are stuck in the belief a sidearm is only good if an LE or military agency uses it, such as the Polish SpecFor using the CZ75,(http://www.specialoperations.com/Foreign/Poland/Unit_Profile.htm), probably because where you are only police or military CAN use sidearms. All Smith Model 10s must be junk, Korth must REALLY be trash, the Desert Eagle/Baby Eagle/Jericho must be a horrible waste of steel, and don't get me started on the fact that not one military force in the world issues those worthless Rugers!
That's Ok, here in America we have lots of choices for free peoples, and no skin if others don't like them. Have a wonderful and safe day, sir.

The CZ's have the longest trigger reach of any gun on the market

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Yep, I noticed that too. Many females and some smaller-handed men aren't going to enjoy the stretch to the trigger.

But I suspect the biggest reason is cost. CZ's were under the radar a few years ago, and damn cheap for what you get. Their prices have gone up a lot. Still great pistols, but not exactly the bargain they used to be.

CZ's aren't issued by US police departments for the same reason that the XD and Taurus aren't. Western Europe is OK, the other countries around the world are not. (You might have to be at least 40 years old and served in the military to understand this).

Now, if CZ-USA begins manufacturing pistols in the US, they certainly stand a good chance.

As for Glock selling contract guns for $75, they can do it because LEO's are making private purchases for $350 and citizens are paying $500. In the end, it all evens out. Those dirt cheap contract guns are one hell of a marketing investment. Glock may not know much about machining firearms, but their marketing skills are the best in the business.

Most agencies nowadays have "Buy America" clauses in their funding.

Besides, to fund one officer with carry pistol and 2 extra mags, there's a lot of additional hidden costs for training, armorer training, service parts, extra magazines, holsters, etc. which can easily double or triple the "per gun" cost.

Most agencies have already invested heavily in a couple of semi-auto platforms.

There is no reason to change, all the service pistols already work fine.

Kurt, I wish they would, since they aquired the Dan Wesson plant sometime ago, but not yet.

Shadow 7D said:

If the whole DA/SA thing is so big of a deal they why does the army carry a Beretta 92?,

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Hate to say this about my beloved 92, but Beretta was the lowest bidder, and they wanted DA/SA, even though the military is forced by idiots to carry chamber empty, rather than a hot round under a DA activated hammer.

Plus, until the CZ-85, the safety on the CZ wasn't ambidextrous, and until the 75-BD, there were no decockers.

Being a southpaw, my preferences go toward the '85 and the ambi CZ's or the Decocker equipped.

(The original '75 with the big hammer would be so good for manually lowering it.)

I personally believe CZ-USA does a horrible job of marketing themselves. Their parts and accessories website was "Coming Soon" for years and once if finally went online it turned out to be a joke. Their revamped main site is much better than it used to be but they still list the RAMI 2075BD as using "ribber" grips. I sent them an email months ago about that typo. It's all little stuff but if the marketing they do to LE/Security agencies is anything like their online marketing I can see why they don't get much respect. Don't get me wrong, I _love_ CZ pistols but I'm not impressed with CZ-USA's outward appearance.

LE agencies can get Glocks for about $75.00 each

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A little misleading. Glock may well have charged the agency $75, and they also would take all the "old" guns and magazines off the agencies hands. Besides the $75, what ever they could sell the used guns for was pure profit. In some cases they may have made a larger profit than if they had sold them the Glocks at retail without the trade in deal.

Where do you think many of these large batches of used cop guns come from anyway?

Any of you folks remember what Glock did for the 94 gun ban? They traded new magazines for old. Then sold the "old" legal high caps on the market for higher prices. Yea, ole' Gaston looking out for his customers.

But the myth of the $75 dollar Glock lives.

No doubt some really believe it too.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

I see you seem to have a disdain for CZ, as you seem to have disregarded quite a bit of my answer to you. Forgive me, but it also seems you are stuck in the belief a sidearm is only good if an LE or military agency uses it, such as the Polish SpecFor using the CZ75,(http://www.specialoperations.com/For...it_Profile.htm), probably because where you are only police or military CAN use sidearms. All Smith Model 10s must be junk, Korth must REALLY be trash, the Desert Eagle/Baby Eagle/Jericho must be a horrible waste of steel, and don't get me started on the fact that not one military force in the world issues those worthless Rugers!

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Nothing is junk, 1st handgun i carried as duty was 20 yrs old HP issued by the army. Old, rusty , heavy etc but with proper care flawless. Then was personal Jericho FS , flawless, heavy , fun but personal expenses were high (changing springs, mags, ejectors etc). Then was military Sig226 , and eventually Glock.

Now its ugly, plastic, no charm at all, but extremely reliable, cheap parts (very few ), no need to wait for armorer to replace connector or this spring or another, Teniffer is robust , no rust, none sensitive to the sand and dust.

Those parameters are price less for LE and Military, they are less important for local PD`s in continental EU (during the last visit in EU I have seen Policemen with 7.65 mm single stack guns and even revolvers ), but its priceless for more "aggressive environment". This is why more complex Jericho with much supreme accuracy then ANY glock never enter the military here, and even police SF went for a Glock.

The only SF unit that still carries SA/DA CZ clone - Jericho PSL/FSL is IPS/ SWAT Team - Mezada, but they are strictly "indoor" unit.

5 cents on Grom, Don`t trust cheap internet resources - here the official Poland MOD website of GROM

They are well sponsored by their government. Here is discovery channel film in polish sorry if some one lost in translation

In addition to some other great points...

Until most recently, CZ didn't offer a pistol that had the features that were desired by the vast majority of U.S. law enforcement agencies-I don't think they even tried to understand what was important to the typical LEO here. The heavy frame material and caliber by themselves would eliminate the CZ75 from consideration in many cases. They are starting to come around now, but the market is saturated with police weapons, and there are a lot of great ones manufactured in the United States.

Glocks production price in 2000 was about 75$,

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What the heck does that mean? What is production price, never heard of the term.

The heavy frame material and caliber by themselves would eliminate the CZ75 from consideration in many cases.

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What about the lightweight, alloy framed PCR which has been available for at least ten years and was used by the Czech Police until it was replaced by the alloy framed P-01? Both sport decockers, lighter weight and high capacity for their size.

I've carried the PCR since I bought it in 2000 and it replaced my Sig P228 which has been a popular LEO pistol.

First you say "any contract" ...

"CZ trying for a decade to win any military/le contract on the market."

Then later on you back up and say "never widely adopted by any big military or country"...

"CZ 75 line never were widely adopted by any big military force or country outside Eastern Europe. Rest is CZUSA advertising. "


Well, which is it, "any" or "never...widely"? You can't have it both ways.

The CZ-75 has been widely used by many units around the world. Maybe only small units such as special forces and elite police groups, but it has been used and it has earned it's stellar reputation.

What you are doing is similar to saying that Corvette or Ferrari has never been adopted by a major country for motor pool transportation and thinking you have made some kind of valid point. You haven't. Big contracts are rarely if ever for the best product available. Cost and politics has a great deal to do with the selection of a vendor/supplier.

John

I think Glock and Harley use the same strategy with all LE agencies, except Harley "gives" them away.

John,

CZ pistols , whatever is written in CZUSA adds, not accepted as standard sidearm (not a choice of some tiny unknown African or eastern European unit) of any big LE or Military force. Czech Police in natural exception, but even there elite units use Glock.

CZ75 in the period of late 80s to late 90s was used by various Eastern EU countries like a pistol of choice for elite army units as a immediate and cheap (at that time cheap) replacement of Makarov pistols (and its clones).

Why? It was transformation period for those countries from Warsaw Pact to NATO, and also a transformation from socialism to capitalism and economical crises that comes with it. Even Russian Alfa used CZ75 pre B models in Afghanistan, because it was the best available pistol in Warsaw Pact countries.

All this is irrelevant to US or modern western countries (even for those eastern EU) , because CZs are no longer the only option, and no longer the best or cheapest option on the market.

And now you can see CZ USA fighting for BIGGEST gun market in the world => USA civilian market. Right strategy by the way. Croatian HS does the same with Springfield .

As for the US LE CZ75 came to late, decades late, and even CZ P07 is late for the train, today there are too many excellent and well known polymer pistols in 40sw/9mm/45acp at the market .

rinspeed said:

trillium said:

Glocks production price in 2000 was about 75$,

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What the heck does that mean? What is production price, never heard of the term

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"Production price" is the actual cost for the company to make something.

You know, such as the Russians manufacturing Saiga rifles for ~$75 each in actual materials and production time.

What about the lightweight, alloy framed PCR which has been available for at least ten years and was used by the Czech Police until it was replaced by the alloy framed P-01? Both sport decockers, lighter weight and high capacity for their size.

I've carried the PCR since I bought it in 2000 and it replaced my Sig P228 which has been a popular LEO pistol.

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Too late. Ten years ago polymer framed .40s were the rage and had already established themselves as a very reputable firearm in law enforcement.

CZ doesn't have a history here and doesn't get consideration from law enforcement agencies because of it.

Like you, I have experience with other brands that are in a lot of police officers' holsters, and prefer CZ.

With all the praise of CZs from accuracy to reliability to one of the best combat pistols in the world it seems that they would at least have a share of the LE market

Is being made in the Czech Republic some reason?

Because LE prefers a full size POLYMER for carry?

I just dont get it

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They have a very tiny portion of the LE market in the U.S. and likely will not have a bigger one anytime soon. Why?

At the time LE made the transition from wheelguns to semis CZ products were not widely known in the U.S. The LE market in the U.S. bypassed any guns with single action only capability (the 1911 and the BHP chief among them, were ,except for small agencies, bypassed) in favor of da/sa semis with decockers which at the time CZ did not offer. S&W and the 92 ruled the roost till the mid 90s.

The CZ 75 was never targeted for sale in the Eastern European bloc countries. It was chambered in 9mm which was not used by any military or LE agency of the Stalinist dominated countries. From the late 70s throughout the 80s though it did very well on the international market which is what CZ intended for it to do. It was cheaper to get than the Berretta 92 for many smaller Asian and African nations. At that time it had a much better DA trigger pull than the 92. The 75 gained a reputation internationally relatively quickly. Part of this is that it is a well made, strong and reliable sidearm. Part was mystique...because it was rare in the U.S. it's rep spread. Another part was that it was the first and only gun that could be carried da/sa or C&L. this added to it's appeal to many and also made it a slightly more complicated gun internally than some others.

In the 90s Glock hit the U.S. LE market like a tidal wave. An inexpensive, rugged, accurate easy to maintain gun it pushed both S&W and Berretta out of the top spot. CZ was never in the running and only reached the U.S. in larger numbers by the late 90s. CZ was big by Czech standards but small compared to FN, Glock, S&W, Berretta, H&K, etc. important to keep that in mind.

In this decade Glock has been pushed back from the top spot by Sig and a resurgence by S&W in the U.S. LE market. Sig followed Berretta's lead in setting up production facilities in the U.S. Unlike Glock, Sig and S&W (and to a lesser extant Springfield's XD) also offered something that both the U.S. military and LE has wanted since the 80s, a one handed decocking option. Yep CZ offers that but they have not and still don't have the capability to fill larger orders in the U.S. H&K also does not have facilities in the U.S. and so it's price keeps it out of the LE handgun market in any mass way I believe. Even the P7, though well known and H&Ks most widely spread pistol in the U.S. LE market, was very limited compared to S&W, Berretta, Sig, or Glock they still are.

Several years ago CZ set up facilities in Kansas for repair, custom work and limited production of some items. They have made some headway in the U.S. market with their sporting rifles and some LE rifles for sniping. Most of their success has been in the handgun market where their growth has been slow and steady.

tipoc