jeffmoline
Member
Just picked up a Glock 17. Any reason to NOT carry one in the chamber? I'm used to my Ruger P95 and like the assurance of having the hammer down and the long first double action pull.
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Ghost Walker
Member
You'll never be an, 'American Cowboy' nor a card carrying member of the, 'Kool-Aid Brigade' unless you carry your new Glock with one in the chamber. Forget about silly non-sequiturs like: your own personal safety, or that of your family, and friends. It's far more important for you to go around, 'cocked and locked' all of the time with your Glock in, 'C-0' (Which IS the correct term for Glock's pretensioned striker lockwork.) than it is for you to exercise good old fashioned uncommon common sense - especially with guns!
Look at things this way: The world is a battlefield; you are a sheepdog, and not one of the sheep. Law enforcement can't be everywhere; and your personal safety is essentially your own responsibility. Every new Glock owner needs to be constantly vigilant and prepared for that (once in a lifetime) unsuspected and instantaneous life-threatening ambush event.
Remember: If you can't draw and fire your new Glock with only one hand and in .65 second, or less, then your pistol is no better than a brick. Does this help you any?
HippieMagic
Member
A gun is a gun... If you don't feel safe enough carrying it cocked and locked then you probably shouldn't carry it because it is probably garbage. The post above this almost seems to be a gun control supporter because the logic I gathered from it he is basically saying not even to carry a gun... smells like a troll to me.
A glock is no different from any other gun and quite frankly probably safer than a 1911 cocked and locked so if you want one in the chamber by all means put it there. There really isn't any difference either way. It wont randomly go off so no worries there. You really don't NEED to carry one in the chamber. If you don't have time to rack the slide you probably didn't have time to draw it anyway. The condition you carry in makes no difference but if you ever need it and have none in the chamber you better hope you remember to put one there...
A glock is no different from any other gun and quite frankly probably safer than a 1911 cocked and locked so if you want one in the chamber by all means put it there. There really isn't any difference either way. It wont randomly go off so no worries there. You really don't NEED to carry one in the chamber. If you don't have time to rack the slide you probably didn't have time to draw it anyway. The condition you carry in makes no difference but if you ever need it and have none in the chamber you better hope you remember to put one there...
ljnowell
Member
Not opinionated are you?
It has nothing to do with koolaid, or any other such rubish and overly emotional replies.
If you are not comfortable carrying it with one in the chamber in a quality holster, then buy a gun with an external safety. But just so you know, the external safeties can be rubbed wrong and turned off too, its just a matter of proper handling.
There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:
1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.
2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.
3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.
4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.
All fine motor skills lost under stress.
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.
Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.
Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:
Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.
It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.
The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.
If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.
This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.
It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.
Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.
On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...
1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.
2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.
3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.
4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.
All fine motor skills lost under stress.
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.
Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.
Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:
Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.
It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.
The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.
If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.
This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.
It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.
Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.
On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...
Halo is for Kids
Member
I keep one in the chamber, I'd rather have a misfeed while safe at home than when I need the gun "right now"
Plus I may be using my other hand for something: holding a flashlight, opening a door, driving a car, etc...
Plus I may be using my other hand for something: holding a flashlight, opening a door, driving a car, etc...
sidheshooter
Member
Wow.
The Stateside standard is to carry with one in the chamber; the gun is designed for it.
I'll leave the discussions of the "Israeli" con-3 draw and "police training and practice being light years ahead of ours" to another thread, save to say: I don't want to put myself into a situation where I need both hands to manipulate a reactive life-saving tool.
YMMV, of course.
I do have one question, so far as disabling a safety (and not training for condition one application), what happens after the draw when the situation has de-escalated and there is now a condition-zero gun in hand with high amounts of adrenaline behind it? I'm just askin'...
The Stateside standard is to carry with one in the chamber; the gun is designed for it.
I'll leave the discussions of the "Israeli" con-3 draw and "police training and practice being light years ahead of ours" to another thread, save to say: I don't want to put myself into a situation where I need both hands to manipulate a reactive life-saving tool.
YMMV, of course.
I do have one question, so far as disabling a safety (and not training for condition one application), what happens after the draw when the situation has de-escalated and there is now a condition-zero gun in hand with high amounts of adrenaline behind it? I'm just askin'...
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gc70
Member
Too bad you did not ask your question before you bought a Glock.
The first pull on most DA/SA guns is both long and heavy (10-12 lbs.). The first pull on a standard Glock is short and relatively light (5-5.5 lbs.) - much more like the SA pull on DA/SA guns.
As said before, just get a good holster that completely covers the trigger area and, when the gun is out of the holster, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. The same advice would apply equally to a DA/SA gun with the hammer cocked and no manual safety engaged.
kdstrick
Member
It is the same thing as carrying a loaded revolver. Think of it that way.
These are not necessarily facts. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5868741&postcount=174Evela said:
Completely irrelevant with a Glock.Evela said:
oneounceload
member
Nah - smells more like someone who hates Glocks and was trying to be sarcastic....
OP - The Glock is FINE with one in the chamber - don't want it to go off? Don't pull the trigger....pretty basic stuff
jakemccoy
Member
kdstrick said:
No, it's not.
Boba Fett
Member
Wow...you copied and pasted the same thing you posted here: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=401589&page=7
Well allow me to copy and paste my reply to your nonsense and blatant selective chop quoting of my post.
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WTH Evela!?! Your selection chopping of my quote to suite your needs is simply low. And even lower since you quoted me from a DIFFERENT THREAD!
I'm amazed...you actually used a quote from a DIFFERENT THREAD. Did you go around digging up all threads that talk about carrying chambered??
And your "facts" don't meet simple reason. They are opinion. Now, allow me to quote my entire post from this thread you grossly chop quoted:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450820&page=2
Well allow me to copy and paste my reply to your nonsense and blatant selective chop quoting of my post.
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Posted by Evela with my reply comments in bold red:
There are so many threads on this subject that it's worthwhile just to state the facts and let the user decide:
1. The Israeli draw, with a bit of practice, will add about 0.3 seconds to your draw. That's it.
2. If you lack 0.3 seconds, you're already in a hand to hand combat situation. Your goal now is NOT to draw, but to escape so that you can.
3. The Israeli draw uses gross motor skills, the last to be affected by stress and panic.
Yeah...because they've practiced and practiced and developed muscle memory.
4. An external safety, at best, is barely faster than the Israeli draw. Unlike the Israeli draw, it requires fine motor skills, the first to go under stress. Accordingly a highly stressed shooter may go blank, fail to release the safety or may activate an unintentionally released safety.
Not really and besides...my pistol doesn't have an external safety. It is simply point and shoot or don't point and shoot. Kind of like a revolver.
All fine motor skills lost under stress.
And racking the chamber doesn't require fine motor skill? It certainly isn't any more difficult for most of us than racking a slide would be. It is actually less difficult to switch off a safety considering it requires less range of motion and less strength to operate
All the BS about how LE carries means exactly nothing to the many CCW and new shooters who are far less competent, do not train as much, have probably never been in a gunfight, and are highly likely to panic and suffer extreme stress.
Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what?
Under these conditions, the Israeli draw makes a lot of sense. For most average or newer gunowners it will probably be safer AND faster.
Now I'd like specifically address some of the comments made:
Actually I probably overstated the additional time to rack and chamber at 0.3 seconds. And you don't have to be a trained Israeli commando either. Actually it is not really an additional step. You draw and rack as the gun is moved forward. The gun has to cover the same path whether it is racked or not. It did not take me much practice before my draw/rack was one smooth motion.
Ok...and what if you don't have your other hand free? This requires 2 hands. There are countless reasons you might not have a free hand. Yet I could still draw and shoot...but not if it isn't CHAMBERED. And allow me to quote the ENTIRE part of my post you chopped...the part about potential jamming while racking the slide...
It is VERY important to realize that most of us have never been in a real firefight. It has been well discussed the loss of the fine motor skills needed to activate a safety are the first to go. Many people even pee their pants, and even experienced LE's have been known to go blank and/or shoot wildly at very short range.
Again...loss of motor skill = chambering a round? What??
The real honest truth is that when facing life and death, probably for the first time, the Israeli draw - which CAN be accomplished with the gross motor skills we have left - will likely be more reliably faster.
Based on what? According to whom? If you are basing it on people, like law enforcement, who have TRAINED as you so often said, then how are we supposed to be so good at this if we haven't developed the muscle memory?
If under stress, you can't perform fine motor skills, you will die with that one extra round.
I agree...and in your method, you'll die without one in the chamber...kind of requires a certain amount of motor skill to rack it back last time I was at the range
This has been well addressed. Regardless of the fact that even experienced LE have been known to lose it, most of us are not police. We lack the training, exposure, experience and practice. We are FAR more likely to suffer from the debilitating effects of extreme stress.
Wait...so you're saying that because law enforcement are more trained than we are AND carry one in the pipe, we who are not as trained should not carry one in the pipe...what?
It's not about that at all, in fact it's just the opposite. NOT carrying one "in the chute" will keep us safer, more reliably, than carrying one. The famous Fairborne and Sykes developed tactics in the early 1900's that continue until today. Their attitudes developed from their experiences in Shanghai, and from hundreds of interviews and visits with police departments around the country.
Their position: pin the safety and carry a full magazine with nothing in the chamber. They recognized nearly a hundred years ago that the safety was a detriment, not an advantage.
A safety is a detriment...for whom? How is it any more or less of a detriment than not having one chambered?
On that we agree. Relying on dependable gross motor skills does exactly that...
Thanks for not including my ENTIRE quote and cutting them up to suite your fake facts. You should be banned for this IMHO
WTH Evela!?! Your selection chopping of my quote to suite your needs is simply low. And even lower since you quoted me from a DIFFERENT THREAD!
I'm amazed...you actually used a quote from a DIFFERENT THREAD. Did you go around digging up all threads that talk about carrying chambered??
And your "facts" don't meet simple reason. They are opinion. Now, allow me to quote my entire post from this thread you grossly chop quoted:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450820&page=2
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I am not even a Glock fan and I will tell you to carry one in the chamber or any other side arm you choose to carry. A quality holster for CC is a must as is practice with your CC weapon regardless of your choice. In a crisis situation all actions should be automatic derived from your time practicing.
So get to the range and practice.
So get to the range and practice.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
The Glock is not a pistol to be carried loose and rattling around. Carry it in a holster that covers the trigger guard, keep your finger off the trigger unless and until you're ready to shoot and it will be fine. Also, it does not have a so-called "'hair' trigger." It takes a fair amount of movement and at least 5.5 lbs. of pressure to fire. There are replacement springs available to increase the pull weight, although I've felt no need to try them, being pleased with mine as is.
As I understand the Israeli draw, you bring the gun up to eye level, turn it sideways, jack the slide using a pinching motion to grasp it, turn it vertically and fire as/if necessary. This is a gross motor skill? I hope to not have to put it to the test. In the meantime, my chamber stays loaded.
Carry it in a holster that covers the trigger guard, keep your finger off the trigger unless and until you're ready to shoot and it will be fine. Also, it does not have a so-called "'hair' trigger." It takes a fair amount of movement and at least 5.5 lbs. of pressure to fire. There are replacement springs available to increase the pull weight, although I've felt no need to try them, being pleased with mine as is.Evela said:
As I understand the Israeli draw, you bring the gun up to eye level, turn it sideways, jack the slide using a pinching motion to grasp it, turn it vertically and fire as/if necessary. This is a gross motor skill? I hope to not have to put it to the test. In the meantime, my chamber stays loaded.
To my knowledge a gun is always loaded unless its in my hands, its slide is locked back and I can visibly see that it is in fact unloaded. To my knowledge the only thing that makes a modern gun fire is the pulling of its trigger. Dont pull the bang switch and we have no problem. Buy a holster that covers the trigger, end of discussion.
EDIT: Oh and cops are trained at the minimum requirements. Which is why most carry glocks cocked&locked in the first place. For instance carrying a 1911 would take more training for a carry gun. Which is why they use glocks, NOT because glocks are superior but because theyre simple. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!
EDIT: Oh and cops are trained at the minimum requirements. Which is why most carry glocks cocked&locked in the first place. For instance carrying a 1911 would take more training for a carry gun. Which is why they use glocks, NOT because glocks are superior but because theyre simple. PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!
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One method of acclimating yourself to the concept of carrying it chamber loaded is to carry it chamber empty for awhile in a good holster and monitor whether you ever find the trigger to have been activated without your intent. After a period of time, I think you'll find you're comfortable carrying with one in the pipe.
DougDubya
Member
People are describing Glocks as being carried locked and cocked?
I can understand cocked - the striker has to be pre-set.
Locked... I see no levers which render the pistol sterile while maintaining a loaded chamber. M&P's, SR9's and the XD-45 have them, but unless you get a Cimolini conversion, no Glocks get locked.
If you have a holster for your Glock which shields the trigger from outside contact, and you only put your finger INSIDE the trigger guard to either fire or begin the field stripping process, then a Glock is as safe as a revolver or a DA/SA auto that has been decocked, regardless of what jakemccoy says.
Glocks are as safe as the person using them. Keep your booger hook resting on the frame until it's time to pull the trigger, you'll be just fine.
I can understand cocked - the striker has to be pre-set.
Locked... I see no levers which render the pistol sterile while maintaining a loaded chamber. M&P's, SR9's and the XD-45 have them, but unless you get a Cimolini conversion, no Glocks get locked.
If you have a holster for your Glock which shields the trigger from outside contact, and you only put your finger INSIDE the trigger guard to either fire or begin the field stripping process, then a Glock is as safe as a revolver or a DA/SA auto that has been decocked, regardless of what jakemccoy says.
Glocks are as safe as the person using them. Keep your booger hook resting on the frame until it's time to pull the trigger, you'll be just fine.
kwelz
Member
Carry with one in the chamber, a cold gun is nothing more than a badly made club. Make sure you have a nice Holster, and for the love of all that is good in the world ignore Evela the troll.
hogshead
Member
The safety is between your ears.Its called indexing but booger hook does have a nice sound to it.
jakemccoy
Member
Doug, I was thinking Glocks are a bit safer.
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