.410 pump for apartment HD??

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bang_bang

bang_bang

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A very dear friend of mine, who happens to be female, is worried about the safety of herself, her roomates, and her neighbor who lives alone (all are female btw). Until she can find a pistol to buy and get enough cash together, what are your opinions on a .410 pump loaded with a 3 inch 000 5-pellet in the chamber, followed by 5 2 1/2 inch 000 3 pellet buck shotshells?

Main reasoning for this is:
1) It's about all I have at the moment to let her borrow until she gets her own. Recoil is manageable for her, and the 5+1 capacity is fairly decent in my book.

2) They live in townhouses, which are basically apartments. I am worried about penetration and risking the lives of others in case of an incident. I know, and test shot the 000 buck loads this morning to confirm, that the penetration is minimal. I feel more confident with them using the .410 in a HD situation than letting them rip it up with a 20 or 12 gauge, or even a 9mm handgun. I'm fairly sure that even though the .410 is lacking power and pellet count...the BG is going to know when he/she has been hit with it.

3) Pump shotgun = universal "Don't mess" signal to BGs.

4) If it's all you have and more than you had...better than where you started, right?
 
.410 pumps are relatively versatile. While not the oomph of 12ga, for a female shooter, .410 offers something a bit more controllable. I got to fire the new .410 Federal handgun load out of a .410 Saiga at some water jugs, NOTHING to sneer at (though the normal buck loads were? :( stunk in comparison penetration wise to the Federal load).

All in all, get her to the range with lots of ammo: from what I have seen the .410 pumps are sort of hard to work on occasion with some shooters and getting them used to working the gun with real loads is key to success with that gun.

20ga might also be an option, I would suggest it over .410, but that is not the question here. .410 would be ADEQUATE, but I would probably prefer a light 20 over a .410.
 
So the Federal "Handgun" buckshot shells pack a little more penetration characteristics compared to the Winchester? I actually saw some of them at Wal-Mart today...

Then again, I'm afraid of too much penetration, due to the layout of the apartments. I'd feel better knowing that the softer lead pellets of the Winchester loads have a better chance of stopping when they enter sheetrock and 2x4 stud walls.

And yes, the 20 gauge would be better. She's not a fan of recoil...I let her shoot my 20 gauge one day and she put it down after 1 shot. She's already made herself clear in saying "NO 20 gauges or 12 gauges."
 
If she won't shoot a 20 I guess the 410 is a decent option. I'm not sure how confidently I'd assume 000 buck won't penetrate, though. Have you tested it on drywall?

As for your pt. #3, get that out of your head. The old "the sound of a pump will make the BG wet his pants" is a ridiculous myth and I really wish people would stop spreading that misinformation around. If someone has the guts to break into an occupied dwelling I would not advise assuming they will run at the sound of a pump. If she's going to be armed you must make certain she has the mindset to use it, not just assume it is a talisman that will protect her.
 
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I have never found anything in any caliber out there that won't go through sheetrock and into the next room. Some things penetrate more than others. There is a website that has done extensive testing of this called theboxotruth.com I'd go check this out. No matter what you shoot, unless the backstop is cement or brick, penetration is almost a certainity.
 
make certain she has the mindset to use it, not just assume it is a talisman that will protect her.
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Oh, believe me, she does.

I did a test on an old locust stump (where I put my targets at). The pellets were all visible and flattened...one was broken apart. I'm sure it would penetrate drywall, but as for the studs and various layers, the pellets would either stop or loose a lot of energy. They are non-coated...so very soft and brittle.

Not the best option, but the best as of now.
 
I'm no expert, but I'd say the .410 is about 5+1 times better than nothing. Not everyone has the money, or ability to buy the latest and greatest, and it's my personal belief that any form of self preservation is better than hiding in the corner with a cellphone trying to dial 911.
 
bang_bang said:
3 inch 000 5-pellet in the chamber, followed by 5 2 1/2 inch 000 3 pellet buck shotshells?
Click to expand...

That ought to say "go the hell away" in a pretty convincing tone. But, if you are going to go for 2 1/2, might as well use the newer 4 pellet 000 buck federals. They also pattern much tighter than the Winchester X.

They live in townhouses, which are basically apartments. I am worried about penetration and risking the lives of others in case of an incident.
Click to expand...

Assuming this townhouse was built to anything resembling modern building codes, there will be a masonry (read cinder block) firewall that separates the units. You are not going to penetrate that with a 410.
 
mgkdrgn said:
That ought to say "go the hell away" in a pretty convincing tone. But, if you are going to go for 2 1/2, might as well use the newer 4 pellet 000 buck federals. They also pattern much tighter than the Winchester X.



Assuming this townhouse was built to anything resembling modern building codes, there will be a masonry (read cinder block) firewall that separates the units. You are not going to penetrate that with a 410.
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The apartments I've been in around here (Central FL) do not have cinder block or other masonry between units. Hell you can practically hear your neighbor sneeze in some of them. I'm talking about relatively recent construction (since 2002-2003 or newer), too.

I'm sure building codes vary by location, but I wouldn't just assume there is masonry between units. It's probably more than just drywall (MDF maybe?), but I'd want to find out for sure rather than make assumptions.
 
Agreed a 410 is better than nothing, I think with enough range time with a 410 she would easily move up to at least a 20 gauge. I think it's the initial "recoil,boom" flinch of new shooters that commonly get. Besides I'm pretty sure if a BG is coming in and staring down that barrel I don't think he'd say, "Oh jeez thats just a .410." I think he'd be more like "Ah damn, I just pooped my pants. Of course if she's is saving up for a pistol, might as well get her the Taurus Judge, even a novice shooter can't miss with that for short range home defense. Not to mention low wall penetration.
 
PandaBearBG said:
Agreed a 410 is better than nothing, I think with enough range time with a 410 she would easily move up to at least a 20 gauge. I think it's the initial "recoil,boom" flinch of new shooters that commonly get. Besides I'm pretty sure if a BG is coming in and staring down that barrel I don't think he'd say, "Oh jeez thats just a .410." I think he'd be more like "Ah damn, I just pooped my pants. Of course if she's is saving up for a pistol, might as well get her the Taurus Judge, even a novice shooter can't miss with that for short range home defense. Not to mention low wall penetration.
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Maybe if her home is being invaded by snakes. .410 is not adequate for self-defense. It doesn't not penetrate enough to stop someone. A criminal will see a gun, maybe get shot and try to run. A crackhead will take the shots and keep coming. While better than nothing I suggest she save up her money as quickly as possible if she is concerned about her safety.
And is a .410 really the only gun you can let her borrow or is she just scared of anything more powerful like a 12 gauge?
 
3) Pump shotgun = universal "Don't mess" signal to BGs.


There are people out there who are not rational and therefore don't get the 'universal "Don't mess" signal.' Therefore it is best not to have this dubious point in mind at all. Ever.

A weapon is not a magic talisman that will automatically dissuade bad guys. Nor is the sound of a racking pump shotgun. Or even sitting behind the main gun of an Abrams tank. There are still people who will press the assault.

She needs to practice with the weapon. Firing. Manipulation. Basic maintenance.

And she needs to develop a tactical plan for various possible scenarios in her apartment.
And gain knowledge of state law regarding the use of lethal force in self defense.

I personally would recommend at least a 20 gauge but the .410 is better than a slingshot.
 
The .410 with 000 buck in the hands of a cool and collected shooter is nothing to be taken lightly. A miss with a 12 gauge will do no more good than a miss with the .410, after all. And it is fairly easy to miss with a shotgun when ranges are measured in mere feet, adrenaline is pumping and the pattern is no bigger than bore diameter. Of all the shotgun myths, 'you can't miss with a shotgun' is the one most likely to get a neophyte killed.

A few folks here often say - "It will do, if YOU will do." The most important thing is the mindset and skillset of the nut that holds the stock on ANY shotgun. If her mindset is squared away, then pretty much all you need to work on is her skillset. She can practice with birdshot till she has gunhandling and target management down pat.

It would be good to help her with ideas for 'hardening' her place, to give her advance warning of people approaching and to do things to discourage anyone unwelcome from trying to get in. The drill on all that stuff is pretty standard, we've been over it a lot here.

The other thing is to try and establish the 'fatal funnel' in advance, that is, the only likely lane of approach to her established safe room. The background/potential impact area of the fatal funnel can then be hardened with loaded bookshelves, full filing cabinets, heavy furniture etc. to address worries about misses or overpenetration. If her 'bunker' position in her safe room is low, that will help direct the angle of fire higher and might also help address those concerns.

lpl
 
IIRC a .410 will generate the same velocity as any other gauge, but with a greatly reduced payload...the penetration of one 000 ball will be the same as a 12ga.

If she has no real intention of practicing with a handgun, a shotgun may be the best choice all around. I would just have her pick up a basic mossberg 500 in 12 gauge and run reduced recoil ammo. She isn't going to mind the recoil in a real situation and it will sell quickly when it she decides to get rid of it.
 
I have a Bond 45/410 and a Judge 45/410. The .410 000 handgun load is pretty mean and IMO would be a good HD load. I suggest, as when firing any gun, to wear hearing protection when firing the410 handguns. I have a friend who is having a house demolished in the next month or so and we plan to do some wall penatration testing before they tear it down with our HD guns.
 
My experience suggests the 5-pellet rounds are serious rounds... I've shot those into various media over the years and they do some serious damage. A guy hiding in a dumpster would survive, but a guy standing and threatening would most likely change tune if hit with a payload of 3" 000 buck. Those rounds punch well above their weight. I would use that round in an HD situation any day. With the manageable recoil a couple hits should seal the deal with almost anybody. Highly recommended.

gp911
 
Assuming this townhouse was built to anything resembling modern building codes, there will be a masonry (read cinder block) firewall that separates the units.
Click to expand...

The problem being that the only thing outnumbering gun laws are building codes. For instance, in much of Texas, you only need to have a masonry fire seperation wall for every other unit. Now, the demising wall between the non-FSW, typically has to be rated construction, but some places will allow 1 and 2 hour rated wooden walls.

Also, you can drop to 1 hour wall in some units by installing full (wet) sprinkler systems.

But, for some loft projects, that seperation wall in wood or galvanized studs will be something, being 2 layers of 5/8" wallboard, taped and fire pookied both sides; and the voids stuffed full of mineral wool batts. Which can be stouter than the single thickness of 6" CMU far too often used. Unless the cells are filled, CMU are surprisingly fragile perpendicular to the wall direction.

Construction varies; often we are "stuck" with what we have, not what we want. That's why "hardening" the person works better until you can harden both home and heart (mind/body, etc.)
 
Unless she misses with every shot i believe a 410 pump would take care of any crack headed ninja.
 
As mentioned, all shotguns fire their payload at relatively the same velocity...the variable is how big of a payload.

A 410 firing a 3" shell with 5 pellets of big buckshot is like a guy catching half the pattern of a 12 guage 2 3/4th load.

That's nothing to scoff at. I'd be more worried about that than a 38 special.

Penetration is an issue however. It's one of those 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'

IF a shot will penetrate deeply enough to do serious interal damage (and that's what you need to END THE FIGHT NOW) it will also go through walls.

A shot that won't go through a single sheet of sheetrock, well, that isn't going to penetrate a human attacker enough.

It ends up being something of a balancing act.

I personally think that after the shot passes through TWO layers of sheetrock the pellets are going to be going slow enough that damage if it would hit an unintended person, is going to be minimal. No, not perfect, but nothing is.
 
The .410 is waaay under rated,and often referred to as a ''beginners'' gun. Not so much,in fact the darn things shoot a tight shot pattern,with almost any choke. You really do have to aim with any shotgun [despite what you see in the movies] and even more so,with the .410. At 30 feet,my old .410 H&R single shot break open would shoot a pattern about the size of a silver dollar.Of course,it had a 26'' full choke barrel.No way I'd want to be shot by one.
 
I would see if she can use a 20ga. My wife has my rifled slugger on her side of the bed with some shot in it. No way she'll miss. At the same time it won't over penetrate either.

My daughters (10 and 8) have shotguns too. If they are using .410's, then I would think your friend would be fine with a 20ga. Actually they'll both use 20's for deer this year because of the lack of punch from a .410

Would a .410 work? Sure. Even a .22 would work. But I think I would want a bit more if my life was on the line.

Read the sig for the most important part of this thread.
 
As far as being able to shoot it...she's way above that stage. That girl can out shoot me any day of the week...and my round count is probably 3,000 to her every 1 shot. She's a natural shot and rather cool headed...I won't worry so much knowing she's armed with a .410 rather than half of a bowflex rod or baseball bat.

I do own a 20 gauge and a 12 gauge, but they are both single shots. She could probably handle a 20 gauge pump with 2 1/2 inch shells...

With that said and taking everyone's posts into consideration, we're probably going to end up getting a youth 20 gauge sometime in the future. I've stayed with her the past 2 nights (some reports of people seeing a man in their backyard has got her shaken up) and we installed some of those magnetic door/window alarms in her place and hung some curtains. We are going to do the same with her neighbor's place next week.

The .410 is really the only thing I have handy. That kind of trumps my other shotguns due to it being a pump vs. single shot battle.

We also looked at some pistols yesterday. She is really fond of the Bersa (Thunder?) .380, which fits her hand well (small hand) and will be small enough for concealed carry. This pistol, due to her financial situation atm, will have to fill both CC and HD. Ammo is a little scarce, but I've tracked down a few boxes locally.

As long as I'm nearby, she'll never have to fire a shot in a situation. I've already told her she's either hiding in her bedroom or bathroom, locking the doors, calling 911 and sitting there with the .410 until police arrive. I'm still working on "battle plans" if something does happen.

I do like the idea of her with a shotgun nearby more than a pistol, that's why I'm considering her keeping the .410 until we can either replace that weapon or I buy me something else. Having a pistol + a shotgun in a situation seems a bit more comforting.

Having said that, she has told me she feels better with a pistol in her hand rather than a shotgun. Gonna have to talk some sense into her head and fill up some milk jugs with water, then show her pistol vs. shotgun on reactive targets.

I'm also going to find out about the construction. I'd feel 110% better knowing that some hard surface is between the townhouses. The outside is brick, and it's rather quiet inside, so I'm really wondering now.
 
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