California interstate long gun transfer

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mlaustin

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Davis, CA
Sorry if this has been asked before, I've been searching google and forums all day and there doesn't seem to be a really clear cut answer:

I'm a California resident. My friend and roommate is from Nevada and maintains residency there while attending school at Davis.

I visited him a few weeks ago and we went to Cabela's, and they had a few rifles and shotguns for good prices that I wanted to buy. When I asked the clerk, he said "You're a CA resident? Sorry about that, but we don't even mess with out of state transfers, it's just not worth the money, especially with your [deleted] state".

So my question is...can I buy Nevada guns by going through the following? I don't want to do anything illegal, am not asking about anything illegal, etc, I have just spend >1 hour trying to get a definite answer and finding nothing.

Can my friend buy a gun in Nevada (a gun which would be legal in CA), his state of residency, take delivery of the gun (they have no wait on long guns), and drive back to CA with me and transfer it to me via an FFL? As far as I can tell, this isn't a straw purchase because a) I am legally allowed to own the gun and b) the gun is legal in CA (ie - no >10rd magazines, no assualt rifle, etc) and c) ownership is being legally transferred to me.

Do we even need an FFL to do the transfer on a long gun? Google brought up info on lots of other states where you can just do a face-to-face transfer of long guns, but they were almost always states much friendlier to guns than mine. If you do a face to face cash transfer, what forms do you need to file to indicate the change of ownership, if any?

Also, does the waiting period still apply if it has to go through an FLL (ie - do my friend and I do the paperwork and then the gun stays with the dealer for the requisite ten days in CA).

Thanks in advance for any help, I just cannot seem to find anything definite about this online and would rather not assume that online advice I found for KY is valid in CA and get in trouble with the BATF. Since my two best friends up here are from NV and AZ...I wind up drooling over stuff in gun shops there a lot with no clue if I could own it.
 
mlaustin said:
Can my friend buy a gun in Nevada (a gun which would be legal in CA), his state of residency, take delivery of the gun (they have no wait on long guns), and drive back to CA with me and transfer it to me via an FFL? As far as I can tell, this isn't a straw purchase because a) I am legally allowed to own the gun and b) the gun is legal in CA (ie - no >10rd magazines, no assualt rifle, etc) and c) ownership is being legally transferred to me.
Click to expand...
Yes.
You both can meet at a CA FFL dealer or he can ship it to the CA FFL dealer.
Keep in mind, since this is an interstate transfer, the CA FFL dealer can charge any amount to process the transfer (expect to pay anywhere from $70-150).

mlaustin said:
Do we even need an FFL to do the transfer on a long gun? Google brought up info on lots of other states where you can just do a face-to-face transfer of long guns, but they were almost always states much friendlier to guns than mine. If you do a face to face cash transfer, what forms do you need to file to indicate the change of ownership, if any?
Click to expand...
Federal laws require you to use a FFL dealer.
Federal laws [18 USC 922(a)(3)&(5)] prohibits the transfer of firearms between residents of different states without the use of a FFL dealer in the buyer's state of residence.

mlaustin said:
Also, does the waiting period still apply if it has to go through an FLL (ie - do my friend and I do the paperwork and then the gun stays with the dealer for the requisite ten days in CA).
Click to expand...
Yes. You will have to wait 10 days, when transfering a firearm through a CA FFL dealer.



US Code Title 18 Part 1 Chapter 44 Section 922
(a) It shall be unlawful—

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;
 
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I'd just go to the next salesperson.

California is silly, but I was readily accommodated when I bought a Marlin 45-70 at the Cabelas outside Reno. I had to laugh since I have my FFL on speed dial, so I called him and asked him to fax his license to Cabelas.

The rifle arrived in California with no issues of any kind.
 
Thanks! Quiet, that was exactly what I was looking for. Not happy news, but at least I know now. Guess NV and AZ gun shopping is going to be like shopping on Gun Broker now - "Hrm, looks like a good deal, but when you add shipping and FFL..."

I'm going to Vegas for a conference in a few months, I'll have to check out Henderson when I do (mmm, I love rental cars and university gas...).

I'll check out calguns, but can anyone recommend a good Sac area FFL who will do the transfer for a reasonable fee? My normal gun shop (River City Gun Exchange) said they wanted $90, which is just more than I'm willing to pay.
 
First make sure the gun is legal in CA. No "assault weapons" and pistols must appear on the current approved list.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Yes, you do have to do the transfer at an FFL and wait ten days. Call and discuss it with the FFL in advance, but they will probably handle it as a face to face transfer, which costs $35. ($25 DROS and $10 transfer).

Best of luck.
 
natman said:
Yes, you do have to do the transfer at an FFL and wait ten days. Call and discuss it with the FFL in advance, but they will probably handle it as a face to face transfer, which costs $35. ($25 DROS and $10 transfer).
Click to expand...
I'd hardly take this post as gospel.

"Transfer fees" are set by the FFL holder, not any governing agency or law.
 
I'd hardly take this post as gospel.

"Transfer fees" are set by the FFL holder, not any governing agency or law.
Click to expand...

Actually in California they are. FFL holders do not have the freedom to set thier own transfer prices in the state of California. All California citizens are forced by California law to go through an FFL for every transfer.
For in state transfers they have a maximum they cannot legally exceed without violating the terms of thier license in California.

$25 DROS and $10 transfer is the statutory maximum for transfers codified within the penal code of California for all FFL holders in the state.
The various portions of the DROS are set in law to increase based on the cost of living and California Consumer Price Index. Essentially the price increases are tied to inflation, raises of minimum wage, and the economy.

Dealers can be fined, lose thier license, and be criminally charged for failure to follow the policies governing thier FFL license use in the state of California.



12082. (a) A person shall complete any sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm through a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 in
accordance with this section in order to comply with subdivision (d)
of Section 12072. The seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm shall deliver the firearm to the dealer who shall retain
possession of that firearm. The dealer shall then deliver the firearm
to the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the
firearm, if it is not prohibited, in accordance with subdivision (c)
of Section 12072. If the dealer cannot legally deliver the firearm to
the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned the firearm,
the dealer shall forthwith, without waiting for the conclusion of the
waiting period described in Sections 12071 and 12072, return the
firearm to the transferor or seller or the person loaning the
firearm. The dealer shall not return the firearm to the seller or
transferor or the person loaning the firearm when to do so would
constitute a violation of subdivision (a) of Section 12072. If the
dealer cannot legally return the firearm to the transferor or seller
or the person loaning the firearm, then the dealer shall forthwith
deliver the firearm to the sheriff of the county or the chief of
police or other head of a municipal police department of any city or
city and county who shall then dispose of the firearm in the manner
provided by Sections 12028 and 12032. The purchaser or transferee or
person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay
a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee
may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a
firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable
fees that may be charged pursuant to Sections 12076, 12076.5, and
12088.9 and forwarded to the Department of Justice, and the fees set
forth in Section 12805. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a
dealer from charging a smaller fee. The dealer may not charge any
additional fees.
(b) The Attorney General shall adopt regulations under this
section to do all of the following:
(1) Allow the seller or transferor or the person loaning the
firearm, and the purchaser or transferee or the person being loaned
the firearm, to complete a sale, loan, or transfer through a dealer,
and to allow those persons and the dealer to comply with the
requirements of this section and Sections 12071, 12072, 12076, and
12077 and to preserve the confidentiality of those records.
(2) Where a personal handgun importer is selling or transferring a
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person to comply with clause (ii) of subparagraph (A) of
paragraph (2) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072, to allow a
personal handgun importer's ownership of the pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person being sold
or transferred to be recorded in a manner that if the firearm is
returned to that personal handgun importer because the sale or
transfer cannot be completed, the Department of Justice will have
sufficient information about that personal handgun importer so that a
record of his or her ownership can be maintained in the registry
provided by subdivision (c) of Section 11106.
(3) Ensure that the register or record of electronic transfer
shall state the name and address of the seller or transferor of the
firearm or the person loaning the firearm and whether or not the
person is a personal handgun importer in addition to any other
information required by Section 12077.
(c) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a dealer who does
not sell, transfer, or keep an inventory of handguns is not required
to process private party transfers of handguns.
(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.
Click to expand...
 
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I'd hardly take this post as gospel.

"Transfer fees" are set by the FFL holder, not any governing agency or law.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but in California transfer fees for FTF transactions ARE set by law, at the price mentioned.

From the Califronia DOJ Firearms FAQs http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#18G :

"What fees can I charge for handling a Private Party Transfer (PPT)?

If the transaction is a PPT, you are restricted to charging no more than $25.00 in State fees described and $10.00 per firearm for conducting the PPT. For example:

1. For a PPT involving one or more handguns, the total allowable fees are $35.00 for the first handgun, and $31.00 for each subsequent handgun.
2. For PPTs involving one or more long guns, the State fees are limited to $25.00 for the whole transaction plus $10.00 dealer fee per firearm transferred.

(PC section 12082) "

Where dealers do have discretion is on out of state transfers, where they can charge for "use of their FFL" on top of the set $35 fee.

What makes this particular transaction a little unusual is that the seller is from out of state, so there is a possibility that the DROS system may not accept the seller's out of state ID. Then the normal FTF procedure won't work. The dealer would have to log the gun into his inventory and then run a buyer only DROS as if he was selling a gun from his inventory. Since the seller is standing there, there would be no "use of their FFL" in the usual sense. I doubt the dealer would charge for "use of their FFL" under the circumstances, but that's why I advised the buyer to ask in advance.

Amen.
 
Problem you forget to realize is that the PPT happens between two CA residents. This is an out of state transfer subject to whatever the dealer wants to charge. The fact that the dealer acquires the weapon in person from the non-resident is a non-issue.
 
In CA...

PPT (Private Party Transfer) fees are set by the state at $35 ($25 to CA + $10 to FFL dealer).
However, a PPT is a FTF (face-to-face) transfer between two CA residents facilitated by a CA FFL dealer.

If the firearm is being shipped or is being imported from outside of CA, then it is not a PPT and the FFL dealer can charge any amount for the transfer on top of the $25 state fee.
 
mlaustin said:
I'll check out calguns, but can anyone recommend a good Sac area FFL who will do the transfer for a reasonable fee? My normal gun shop (River City Gun Exchange) said they wanted $90, which is just more than I'm willing to pay.
Click to expand...

I don't know NorCal, but...

Contact PRK Arms in Fresno.
I believe they charge less than $90 for out-of-state transfers.
 
Yep. Jeff at PRK Arms and I do a lot of business together.

I also do a bit of business with Snelling's Firearms in Sac.

I can vouch for both of them.
 
Problem you forget to realize is that the PPT happens between two CA residents. This is an out of state transfer subject to whatever the dealer wants to charge. The fact that the dealer acquires the weapon in person from the non-resident is a non-issue.
Click to expand...

I realize that is a potential issue, that's why I described it in detail:

"What makes this particular transaction a little unusual is that the seller is from out of state, so there is a possibility that the DROS system may not accept the seller's out of state ID. Then the normal FTF procedure won't work. The dealer would have to log the gun into his inventory and then run a buyer only DROS as if he was selling a gun from his inventory. Since the seller is standing there, there would be no "use of their FFL" in the usual sense. I doubt the dealer would charge for "use of their FFL" under the circumstances, but that's why I advised the buyer to ask in advance."
 
Of course the dealer is using the FFL. It's a firearm transfer between residents of two different states. The fact that the dealer acquires the firearm in person from the seller is not important nor a factor.
 
Of course the dealer is using the FFL. It's a firearm transfer between residents of two different states. The fact that the dealer acquires the firearm in person from the seller is not important nor a factor.
Click to expand...

Yes, technically it is an interstate transfer, so the dealer is not bound by law to treat it as a PPT.

However, the dealer does not have to send the FFL anywhere or deal with receiving the gun from shipping, which is where most of the costs in interstate transfers come in. You'd have to be pretty hard core to charge for "use of your FFL" under the circumstances. So there is a good chance that the dealer would treat it as a FTF transfer. This would be entirely up to the dealers discretion, so as I've said from the beginning check first.
 
Well, if they log it in their books, then run background check on the buyer, that's called "using your FFL". If he wasn't using his FFL, which is a license to engage in the business of dealing in firearms, you could just take the gun FTF from the seller and be done with it. However, that is illegal according to federal and state law, so it must be sent through an FFL.

That is a transfer. You will get charged a transfer fee. If you think just because the FFL is accepting the gun in person from the seller then transferring to you after he logs it in his book that you should have this done for free you have no concept of how this business works.

If I have to log a weapon into my bound book and perform a background check, you sure as hell bet I'm going to charge for it. I am performing a transfer service for which there is a fee.

Done this a few times. Guy comes in from out of state with his dad (local resident). Wants to gift a gun to his father. OK. Log it in from son, run the 4473 on the father, get paid $20, log out, done.
 
Well, if they log it in their books, then run background check on the buyer, that's called "using your FFL"
Click to expand...

Not if the two buyers are both from California, per CA law.

Yet again, in this particular transaction, the two buyers are not both from CA, so the CA restriction on fees may not formally apply. Therefore while this transaction may not be a PPT (Private Party Transaction) it is a FTF transaction. Since most FTF transactions are PPTs, dealers are used to charging the $35 fee and there is a decent chance that's how they would handle the original poster's transaction.

I realize that:
The dealer is not obligated to do it that way.
YOU wouldn't do it that way and that's your right.
 
You obviously don't get it and never will, so I'm going to save myself the trouble of trying to tell you how it is and not waste my time anymore.
 
Under the CA system, CA DOJ BOF requires CA FFL dealer to do a DROS (Dealer Record OF Sale) for every transaction. Under the DROS system, a PPT can not be conducted unless both of the parties have CA ID/DL. If both parties do not have a CA ID/DL, then it has to be conducted as a non-PPT/interstate transfer in order for the DROS to be accepted.
 
The last time:

Because the seller is from out of state, this is technically NOT a PPT in California. Therefore the dealer is entitled to treat it as an interstate transfer and charge whatever he wants.

See? I do get it and I've repeated it several times. Freakshow, if it makes you feel any better, your point that the dealer is entitled to charge whatever he wants is absolutely correct.

However, based on my years of experience working in a gunshop in California, there is a reasonable chance that the dealer would go ahead and charge this transaction as a PPT because it is a face to face transaction, even though he is not legally obligated to do so. Interstate transfer fees are often high in CA (our shop charges $75) and it would be tough to tell the buyer that he can't get the posted PPT transaction rate because the seller standing right in front of me has an out of state ID and that I have to charge him $75 to cover the costs of sending my FFL and receiving his shipment, when I don't have to do either one.

In addition the dealer is used to charging $35 for FTF transactions and habit is a powerful force.

It's not a question of what the dealer is entitled to do, it's a question of what the dealer might actually do.

Because handling the transaction this way is entirely at the dealer's discretion, call first.

That's as clear as I can make it. I'm done.
 
Nat, Freak, you're both correct.

it is up to dealer discretion how it is charged... (heck just because we can charge a maximum fee of $10 on PPT transactions doesn't mean we HAVE to)... we do PPT's for free before noon (you still have to pay your pound of flesh to the state but we don't get any of it)

And it IS possible that an FFL would charge it differently if the gun was right in front of them.... even though it has to go across the books a bit differently... 90% of the dealers "Out of state transfer" Fee is a direct result of the hassle involved...

In CA, you never know what you're going to get shipped.... or if it will be legally configured.... or if the mailman will misplace it, or if it will get damaged in transit... or if it will get banged up in your safe during an earthquake... I mean, its CA... who the heck knows what will happen... you might have a high cap mag that gets shipped in, you might have an off list pistol that is not configured correctly...the Tooth fairy could throw pixi dust on the Easter bunny and magic rays of sunshine could fly out Santa clauses hindquarters....

Weird, broken, illegal stuff shows up at gun shops all the time... and then we have to deal with it (properly, and legally)... and its a huge amount of time getting wasted setting everything right which we could have otherwise been using to be productive...

If you show up with your grandpas enfield in a gun sock, and you are IN our store (we like it when people physically present and have the opportunity to purchase stuff) yeah we might cut you a break if we are in a good mood.

Just a general hint though... Your odds of getting a cheap (or free) transfer go up as you buy more stuff while you're in the store.

And it doesn't hurt to be a repeat customer.
 
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