Somebody enlighten me

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mugsie

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OK - I might ramble a little but bear with me. I question as to why work up a load? I do it, but why. Given any particular rifle, I can purchase factory match ammo, and it will shoot within 1 moa if not better. Why do we need to "work up a load" for our rifles? If I drop say 44 grains of x powder under a xx caliber bullet, fire it and then zero the scope for that combination, it should always shoot at that aim point. I realize there are variations in powder, brass etc., but all things being equal one shot should be the same as the next or else factory ammo would be all over the place.

Match ammo - 5 shots 1 moa. Reloaded ammo, 5 shots should be 1 moa also regardless of what the charge. Increase the charge or change the bullet weight and they should all land in the same area - why don't they? I'm wondering if I'm going through a lot of trouble finding the sweet spot for my 308 all for nothing. 44 to 46 Varget, 150g bullet and they all land within 1 moa, albeit a different aiming point which is understandable, but all groups within 1 moa. so why work up loads?
 
Buy a box of the same brand and type of ammo next year and powder will likely be different. Actually the factories use powder by the boxcar, and buy what ever is cheapest that meets their specs. It could be Alliant today and ADI tomarrow. Powder charges also vary, and POI will too from lot to lot.

Good hand loads QC is better if the loader pays attention, normally excede factory accuracy, and if a change does occur you know of it before you try a 300 yd shot on the buck of a lifetime.

Oh and you can load pretty much the same ammo as you buy in factory form for 1/3 the price....maybe less.
 
It sounds to me like you've reached the mechanical accuracy limit of your rifle.

I'm not knocking your firearm but if all your gun will muster is 1MOA you'll likely not be able to realize the potential of loading to barrel harmonics used to wring the last bit of accuracy from a really accurate rifle. I definitely approach load development differently for a hunting rifle than I do my bench gun.


To me it sounds like some dining room table gunsmithing may be in order
 
You work up loads so that you stay within safe pressures. By starting at the lowest level and working up, you can find both the most accurate load and a load that isn't exceeding the allowable pressure.
 
You guys misunderstand - first of all my gun shoots better than 1moa. I was wondering why work up a load? Every load should be the ideal load regardless of where it is in velocity or harmonics. If the harmonics are off, the next shot will be off too - by the same amount. so will the next and the one after that. Adjust the scope to that zero point and wha-la, it all works. No load should be any different than the next.

Let's say the harmonics throw the barrel "up" just as the bullet is leaving. It hits somewhere near the point of aim. The next shot - well it leaves the barrel when it's on the up stroke too, where's it hit? Same spot. So, every load should work. Fine tuning just ensures the bullet leaves while the barrel is level, but that should be no different than any other point on the curve.

I fail to understand load development.

Don't get me wrong however - I fine tune my loads to the point they virtually overlap at 100 yards, but am I doing all this for nothing?
 
The point to loading to bbl harmonics is to have the bullet leave the muzzle as close to the top or bottom of a wave as possible. Where the muzzle is making the least movement.

If as you load as you say to any part of the wave loads that have bullets exiting the muzzle at the center of the wave where the muzzle is moving most the ever present velocity variation will be more pronounced as decreased accuracy.


http://www.rifle-accuracy.com/harmonics.htm


Picture in your mind trying to shoot a swinging pendulum. When would be the easiest point to make accurate hits, at the top of it's swings where it stops for a moment or along the body of the swing
 
I fail to understand load development.

Yep. In a perfect world, in which there is no gravity, no wind, and no liberals ;), then all your bullets from various loads would group as you surmise. I cannot explain why you are seeing similar results (although different POI's, which is normal) with various loads. Normally, guys will see sub 1MOA loads, sub .5MOA loads, and over 1MOA loads thru load development. I suspect if you do more load development with different components, you will see this as well.

Don
 
1. Maximize terminal ballitics against an underloaded commercial standard. For example 7x57mm and 8x57mm are both underloaded by US manufacturers. Full power European ammunition is more expensive, and sometimes hard to find.

2. Maximize exterior ballitics trajectory. What if you want a maximally flat subsonic load for your 308. Where do you buy that?

3. Maximize muzzle energy, minimize leading. Lead bullet handloading always comes down to getting a load that works, does not lead, but will give functional reliability, especially in autoloading pistols.

4. Basic safety axiom. Each load recipe starts for the individual reloader as a mix of semi-unknowns. To get to the desired and safe end, start of at some lesser safe baseline.
 
Work up loads? Depends on goals. I started when handloads commonly were more accurate than factory ammo. Once you have the gear, handloads cost less than factory ammo, and I'm a cheapskate.

Goals: Tighter groups. Or bullets that aren't available in factory loads, such as 80-grain Red Mist loads in a .30-'06. Or such things as flatter trajectory, playing with bullets with a good drag coefficient. Or low-power plinker loads for eye-finger/sight-picture coordination.
 
The bullet leaving at a bad harmonics spot will have more variance than bullets leaving at a good harmonics spot. Other wise all groups be the same if you could eliminate other variables. It has to do with variance.

You are contradicting yourself in on area. On one hand you say only the POI changes but then some of your groups are better than others. That is what really deserves some consideration. I think you are are about to put it all together and really understand it. I think everything is about to line up for you and the light bulb over your head get to full intensity. (Not that I'm at 100%)

"Don't get me wrong however - I fine tune my loads to the point they virtually overlap at 100 yards, but am I doing all this for nothing? "

I know how that goes. I have some groups that were good enough to leave the load alone. I found a better load within the same test. Not a big difference but less MOA is less MOA. In my case I have 3 things that need to work together to get results. My shooting, my equipment and my ammo. A problem with 1 can make the other 2 seem suspect.

I think it comes down to intended purpose and expectation of the individual. I hate load development in ways. If I were loading 1500 rds for a CQB type of match I wouldn't be looking for extra accuracy. How much MOA is acceptable? How much diminishing returns are worth it to a given situation?

This is 1 thing that helped be move ahead in my load development. It does contain some areas that may help you. It is only 1 methodology, not "THE WAY!".

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/

"audette's ladder method" is another.

Of course I've seen barrel harmonics debated and some people think the whole concept is total BS.

At least you are getting results you are happy with. Sounds like some groups are pretty tight. Seems you have a better handle on it than you are giving yourself credit for.
 
Load development really comes into play the further out you get. I have noticed that some bullets group much better at 400 yards if the only difference is half a grain of powder or so. Thats why I do it. I have seen dramatic changes in group sizes with pistol loads by just adding .2 grains of powder to a load. It really does make a difference. I cant tell you why, but I know it does.
 
I should add that with my AR, I didn't see any appreciable difference the last 1.5 grains during my work up. The reason I continued upping the load was to get the maximum velocity while still maintaining safe pressures. For me, I now know that the "set" load will safely and reliably function +/- up to 0.5 grains. While I still check powder weights periodically throughout reloading, knowing my safety and accuracy margins allows me to mass produce rounds through a single stage press quickly.
 
What do you guys do when you have multiple guns in the same caliber? Do you work up seperate loads for each gun, or find some happy medium that works well in all the guns?

I'd think harmonics would be slightly different from one gun to the next, especially if they are different models or brands.
 
The same reason some prefer a Cohiba that was hand rolled on the high thigh of a beautiful Cubin senorita to the machine assembled with no love White Owl cigar.

Quality, curiosity, accomplishment and just plain ol' fun!

....now, who has the Cohiba's?
 
Don't get me wrong however - I fine tune my loads to the point they virtually overlap at 100 yards, but am I doing all this for nothing?

If 100 yards is as far as you ever shoot then yes, you are probably doing it for no practical reason.

At 700 yards though 1 MOA is 7.3 inches. If you can squeeze a group down to .5 MOA through load development you've massively increased your chances of a hit.

So factory ammo that shoots 1 MOA could be potentially useless at distance.
 
'Liberal' is associated with left wing which tends toward socialism = USSR...

Grantman,

Your attempt to tie me in with socialism fails miserably. My handle represents my internet business, Unique Soviet Souvenirs and Relics, and I have studied and visited the FSU for the past 15 years. Just like someone who studies Nazi Germany is not a fascist, someone who studies the FSU is not a socialist.

Don
 
I agree that if you intend to shoot longer range with a load, you must test and fine tune at long range. 100 yard shooting is just fine, and can get you close, but to really get it there it must be shot at longer distances. Years agp I used to be able to do some 400 plus yard shooting where I had access to, but now am limited to 300 yard testing at our range. I always start at the 100 yard line to get things going. I am playing with a .22 Hornet right now. I haven't gone to the 300 yard range with it yet. Still have things to work out at 100. If I would go shoot it more than once every two to three weeks, it would speed things up. ;)

Never underestimate the amount of toil and angst a cheap SOB will put himself thru to save 50 cents
Are you talking about me again Don? :D :neener:
 
If you don't like shooting the smallest groups possible, then don't work up loads. If 1 moa is ok for you then go buy some factory ammo and get after it. But why question what other people want to do? There is nothing wrong with people wanting to squeeze the ultimate out of their rifles.
 
Grantman,

Your attempt to tie me in with socialism fails miserably. My handle represents my internet business, Unique Soviet Souvenirs and Relics, and I have studied and visited the FSU for the past 15 years. Just like someone who studies Nazi Germany is not a fascist, someone who studies the FSU is not a socialist.

Don
heh, I didn't even notice your name. I thought mugsie was saying a world without liberals = the former soviet union.
 
I don't think the OP was bad mouthing the art of reloading but genuinely asking that IF one can purchase quality factory loaded ammo that will maintain MOA then why would a feller want to reload....:scrutiny:

After all you do hear the MOA acronym thrown around a lot...it's magical... it's mythical... it's MOA!:eek:

I hear many a customer stating that only IF this rifle your selling me will shoot MOA I'll be set!

So the ammo makers have gotten onto the MOA band wagon...'our ammo will deliver MOA'... So why would you reload if there ammo will deliver MOA and MOA is the hot steaming deal? lol;)
 
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