If I was there, what could've been legally done?

So, in MN you have to try to escape first? I would start by trying to change that. Here in KS we have no duty to retreat and are justified in using deadly force if we feel that ourself, or another, are in immediate danger of death or bodily harm. So basically, if they come in with guns in full presentation and start threatening people, you may use deadly force to stop the threat.

We also, according to the law, seem to have the right to use deadly force to stop someone who is committing or is suspected of having committed a felony and/or is trying to escape or flee the scene of said felony. Not sure I want to test that one unless there was a threat of bodily harm or they did something really really bad.

Sounds to me like you may not have been able to do anything but try to escape. I would start with finding all the laws, regulations and statutes from MN (state) as well as the local city and county you live in regarding use of force and try to figure out what the law considers to be threat against your life or that of another (if that is even allowed). If they have guns drawn and are threating to kill if they don't get their way, that sounds like a justification to draw your weapon and stop the threat. Again, MN law may not be interpreted that way.

The situation would seem to meet the conditions of Minnesota Statutes 609.06 and 609.065. Based upon those two statutes, I would have shot them.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?year=2009&id=609.06

609.06 AUTHORIZED USE OF FORCE.
Subdivision 1.When authorized.Except as otherwise provided in subdivision 2, reasonable force may be used upon or toward the person of another without the other's consent when the following circumstances exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist:

(1) when used by a public officer or one assisting a public officer under the public officer's direction:

(a) in effecting a lawful arrest; or

(b) in the execution of legal process; or

(c) in enforcing an order of the court; or

(d) in executing any other duty imposed upon the public officer by law; or

(2) when used by a person not a public officer in arresting another in the cases and in the manner provided by law and delivering the other to an officer competent to receive the other into custody; or

(3) when used by any person in resisting or aiding another to resist an offense against the person; or

(4) when used by any person in lawful possession of real or personal property, or by another assisting the person in lawful possession, in resisting a trespass upon or other unlawful interference with such property; or

(5) when used by any person to prevent the escape, or to retake following the escape, of a person lawfully held on a charge or conviction of a crime; or

(6) when used by a parent, guardian, teacher, or other lawful custodian of a child or pupil, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain or correct such child or pupil; or

(7) when used by a school employee or school bus driver, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain a child or pupil, or to prevent bodily harm or death to another; or

(8) when used by a common carrier in expelling a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful requirement for the conduct of passengers and reasonable care is exercised with regard to the passenger's personal safety; or

(9) when used to restrain a person who is mentally ill or mentally defective from self-injury or injury to another or when used by one with authority to do so to compel compliance with reasonable requirements for the person's control, conduct, or treatment; or

(10) when used by a public or private institution providing custody or treatment against one lawfully committed to it to compel compliance with reasonable requirements for the control, conduct, or treatment of the committed person.

Subd. 2.Deadly force used against peace officers.Deadly force may not be used against peace officers who have announced their presence and are performing official duties at a location where a person is committing a crime or an act that would be a crime if committed by an adult.

https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/statutes/?id=609.065&year=2009

609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.
The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.

IANAL, do not play one on TV, and I did not stay at any Holiday Inn last night.

I would say that there is no ability to retreat in this case. Running out the door only makes you an easy target. You can't be held to the standard of trying to escape if that will mean you most likely would get shot. Hindsight is 20/20 and the customer trying to escape could have very well made it out unharmed, but you can't leave your fate up to the people committing the crime. I would suggest that this is the reason why a person gets a CCW permit, and has every justification for using their concealed weapon.

Using the above two statutes, given the situation, as you describe it: "Two men walked in, one was dressed in a security guard uniform. Both drew weapons on the worker and proceeded to rob him", a reasonable person would have to assume that retreating would leave the victim in a situation at risk of great bodily harm or death and, therefore, the duty to retreat would not apply, because the MN statutes clearly allow for deadly force to be used in defense of another.

MN has a duty to retreat law/clause for CC people, and in order to use force, my life has to be in jeopardy.

Thanx, NavyLT for researching this. It seemed odd to me that any state would say "you have to stand by and watch people die" when you can do something to stop it.

May I suggest the book In the Gravest Extreme, by Massad F. Ayoob it is well worth the time and money, and will answer many questions.

Sorry, but IMO, if a person has a weapon in their hand, then my life IS in jeopardy at that moment, and I therefore have a green light to defend myself and any other innocents that might also be in jeopardy.

Were I to find myself in that same situation, I'd try to duck behind some kind of cover so that I could draw and be ready, and then I'd fire on the first s.o.b. that came looking for me. If they didn't know I was there, and the clerk or other customers were in grave danger, I would feel duty-bound to try and help them, and that wouldn't bode well for the BG(s).

In a life-or-death situation facing armed assailants, legal details won't be my primary concern. JMHO, of course.

Minnesota's 'duty to retreat' requirement for the use of lethal force is rather flexible. It's subject to the reasonable man standard. No reasonable man would expect you to, for example, attempt to flee an attacker whose physical appearance suggests that you would lose a foot race. Or to retreat across a busy highway. Or abandon your small child to flee. Etc. There should not be an issue if you can demonstrate to a jury that you reasonably thought that retreating would put you or a family member in more danger.

I totally amazed that no one has yet told you to get a lawyer.

Based on the above posted code, you are allowed to act in defense of a third party.

I am VERY leery of ever doing this. When you use deadly force, your actions will be scrutinized. Even when it was a good shoot, and you did what you were supposed to, you run the risk of the D.A. trying to get into your head and second guess your actions. When you act in defense of a third party, you may be forced to explain what was going on in THEIR head. In Utah, when you act in defense of a third party, you have all the rights that they have, but also the same LIABILITIES. If you jump in and start throwing lead when you don't absolutely know what is going on, you will be at the mercy of others' perceptions. I have a VERY short list of people for whom I will act in their defense. Mostly people who also carry and I have known for more than 20 years. I have family members who are not on this list because they live irresponsible lives.

The only blanket exception to this would be some kind of mass-shooting. If my failing to act means people will be continuing to die, and I have a much better chance of stopping than the police, I will evaluate and decide if I should go back in. The odds are remote, but at the same time, it has happened at a mall I frequently visit.

A man runs out of a store. Another man runs out of the store with gun drawn.

Which one is the bad guy?
Which one is the citizen with CCW?
Which one is an off duty cop?
Which one is an undercover LEO?
Which one is the store's security guard?
Which one just threw a stink bomb in the store?
Which one just said something nasty about the other man's wife?



Go ahead. Shoot one of them. Pick one, Mr. Genius.

This is a hypothetical "what would you do?" based on a real incident that occurred across the street from the OP's place of employment.

OK.

What's unclear to me: Is the "actor" in the scenario IN the pawn shop when the assailants enter? Or is he across the street?

A man runs out of a store. Another man runs out of the store with gun drawn.
Which one is the bad guy?
Which one is the citizen with CCW?
Which one is an off duty cop?
Which one is an undercover LEO?
Which one is the store's security guard?
Which one just threw a stink bomb in the store?
Which one just said something nasty about the other man's wife?



Go ahead. Shoot one of them. Pick one, Mr. Genius.

Click to expand...

And that applies to the situation originally posed by the OP how? Two guys come in the front door and put a gun in the owner's face and begin a robbery?

I totally amazed that no one has yet told you to get a lawyer.

Click to expand...

Now that, right there, is just plain funny, I don't care who you are!

yea mr. genus--- if i was there in bold type -- is kinda hard to understand.

imho when they pulled out guns, retreat is not possible, threat to life is established.

other than the brady bunch and that poor victim, no jury is gonna believe you can outrun a bullet.

the key is if you have time to draw without them noticing, if not you better be fast and a good shot. would be a very hard decision.

I would recommend going to the CCW trainer in your area, and ask this question of him or her. State laws, local laws, and even city ordinances can affect the answer.