Fatal Chicago Beating - What could a bystander have done?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Domina

Member
Joined
May 5, 2008
Messages
48
I don't have a stable link to the video so I'm going to take for granted you've seen it. In the video you see multiple persons fighting, eventually taking up boards and striking the victim. The scene is characterized by general chaotic motion with dozens of people. There were approximately 10 seconds between the first appearance of a board used as a weapon until the victim was struck to the ground.

I'm not looking for a "right answer" here, and I saw some ideas were covered here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=457550&highlight=crowd+defense), but what about this specific situation, what would your reaction be? What could a bystander do? Would you draw a firearm if it were available? What if it were not available? What else could be done and what non-firearm tools might be of use?

Personally I wouldn't have felt comfortable firing at the assailants in the video because of the crowd. Warning shot? I generally don't consider them but maybe that would stop the situation, or at least clear the other bystanders. Then again you might become a target, either of the assailants or another bystander who confuses the warning shot for an assault. What about pepper spray? Or would you stay out of the way, call 911 perhaps?

I'm interested in first reactions to the video, what would you think to do?
 
You get involved in this and you are dead also. There would be no way to save that young man without hurting others. A car would of made a good battering ram to get to him, however the move to drag him into the car would expose you to the same treatment.
 
In Florida

Four conditions existed:
  1. You were just a individual that appeared at this place and time; you had not initiated the event.
  2. You were in a place where you had a legal right to be.
  3. You were meeting force with equal force, and the wooden club was certainly capable of death and/or serious bodily injury, so the use of firearm is considered equal force.
  4. The event involved an immediate forcible felony - aggravated battery.
What would I do - draw and fire, at center of mass of the greatest threat to stop that threat. No warning shots. Anybody swinging a club at anybody who was defenseless would be a legal target.
 
Last edited:
My wife saw a guy getting jumped, she laid on the car horn, locked her door, dialed 911 and let her finger rest on the send button.

She's a smart girl huh!
 
Way too many variables to get involved. And there isn't always a clear victim; they could be a bunch of vicious thugs who are all willfully involved. Short of a rifle with a scope and prior knowledge of who was who, there's no good way to end this kind of thing.

:(

Leave or stay, one thing I wouldn't do is stand there and say "DAYUM" over and over.
 
Frankly I was surprised that the person who video taped this did not get attacked. This tape will put those "disguntled youths" away for a long time I hope. Was not sure if they were capturing the fight for fun or what??
 
You know peyton, I think it just goes to show how absolutely oblivious and short-sighted the ones doing the beating were...
 
Animals, the lot of them. My prayers go out to the family of the victim. To answer the OP's question though, I would have helped the guy getting beaten up to get off the ground, despite the melee ensuing. I wouldn't go in there with guns blazing but I would be ready to shoot anybody that comes at me swinging wooded boards, fists, feet, anything at all. Do I have a chance of getting injured helping this individual out? You bet. Would I want somebody to help me if the situation was reversed? You bet. Golden Rule guys.........
 
Last edited:
Watching that video I did not see a single person till the very end, just a bunch of animals. Herd mentality is a very dangerous thing. I would not go into a situation like that without someone else I'd trust with my life. Honestly, that was a very volatile situation. A rather large disorganized crowd of inner city youth, remember that professionals are relatively predictable....its the amateurs who are dangerous.
 
The original question was about strategy and tactics; I think we can all agree that this was terribly brutal and that there are great social concerns raised by this type of conduct. But, that's not what this forum is about, nor is it the question posed by the OP.

As far as S&T, I would hope that I'd try to intervene to save a kid's life, but it is problematic. Under the best of circumstances, you'd be facing significant chance of becoming the next target. I don't think the answer is to try to pick off the bad guys. Heck, pretty much everyone in the video is a bad guy. For me, the only thing that comes to mind is this:

-First, call 911. Tell them what's happening. Leave your cell phone connected. Cops need to be there. It's an angry mob.
-Announce--loudly--that the cops are on the way.
-Unholster your weapon, make your way toward the victim, and then act to the extent you need to in order to defend yourself. An aggressive move means an appropriate reaction. Sometimes--though not always--the mob mentality can melt away in the face of armed resistance.

Obviously, this is a very complicated and dynamic situation. It's hard to say, judging only from a two-dimensional video clip, exactly what the optimal response would be.

That's what I see myself doing, but I don't claim that it's guaranteed to have a good outcome. I don't claim that it's the only proper response. And, I'm not saying that you would have to do the same thing.

I'm only saying that I would hope that I'd do my best to come to the aid of a kid who's being beaten to death. I personally believe that the job of being a dad involves a responsibility to all kids, whether or not their yours.

I'm actually interested in hearing how some of the folks here with experience in similar situations would suggest reacting.
 
As much as I try to love my neighbor as myself, I just don't see how one person with a handgun could help here. I think calling 911 from a safe distance is what makes the most sense.

LBS
 
This may be a good reason for having a "car gun" or "car rifle" preferably something with easy to swap, large cap magazines. A warning shot or two to get the crowds attention and precipitate dispersal, and a bunch more in case things go south.

Nobody wants their head turned into a canoe.
 
I just want to remind everyone, the kid that was beaten to death was trying to help his friend get out of the fight.
Food for thought. I have no idea what I would do, call 911 definitely,maybe a warning shot,but if you did that even if it worked you'd probably be spending the night in jail. I don't think anything could ave helped that kid,everyone just standing their watching and laughing should go to jail for accessory.
 
Personally I wouldn't touch a mob/herd mentality situation with a ten foot pole.

But, I suppose if I had no choice I would dial 911 and stay within my vehicle or some other bit of cover and take actions to protect myself if necessary.
 
From what I've read about mob mentality, the problem is predicting how the mob will react (yes, I know that's obvious). Sometimes a perceived threat will strengthen the mob's will, but other times it will cause them to disperse.

One principle that always applies is that a strong display of leadership (or authority, if you will) is absolutely essential if you want to have any hope of affecting the conduct of a mob. You must be assertive and controlling. It's possible that a gray-hair like me might have a bit better chance of getting a bunch of teens to settle down, but this is also an environment in which many of the young crowd has no respect for adult authority or even a sense of common decency.

My bottom line is that the employment of deadly force is not what's necessarily going to bring the situation under control--if you wade into a situation like this, you first have to effect to control the situation through your words and demeanor, with the gun only being employed in self-defense. It may be that displaying the clear intent to defend yourself will reinforce your authority over the situation, but that's about the best you could hope for.

Guns-a-blazin' as an initial response may not elicit the reaction you would hope it would.
 
In this particular case you're dealing with a lot of high school students who have probably never been are firearms. Given it seems to be a city setting as well.

Honestly, my best guess, would be that warning shots do a world of help. To the mention that you might go to jail for doing so..I'd much rather have that on my conscious than allowing a person to die for no real reason.

I'd get a fair amount of distance, perhaps across the street would be ideal, call 911, but use 2-3 warning shots to diffuse the situation and disperse the crowd. They're students again so the expectation that they're all packin' more heat than special forces is extremely unlikely.
 
This is Chicago. According to High Road mission statement you should be addressing this as a law abiding citizen. That means you wouldn't have a handgun, concealed or otherwise unless you're a peace officer or high powered local.
The mayor has made every effort to keep guns out of the hands of citizens.
Seeing as how you're not armed with a firearm (and even if you did have a handgun...), your best bet would be to get out of dodge, call the cops, and hope they don't sit down the road a couple of blocks away until everything is over and make an effort to save the guy's life.

Being in the middle of that kind of chimp-out is for people who wander through life oblivious or for the ones who think that sort of thing is adventurous.

You can feel that sort of thing brewing, if you've ever been around it. I would leave way before the boards started swinging.
 
As much as I try to love my neighbor as myself, I just don't see how one person with a handgun could help here. I think calling 911 from a safe distance is what makes the most sense.

LBS
Supposedly there is a video of the situation that shows a police car responding to the riot and the single officer doing nothing until after backup arrived.

As a practical matter, Cops have near immunity for virtually anything they do, so (assuming the single cop story is true) the fact that the lone cop chose to do nothing tells you a lot about what you should be doing in such a situation.

My guess is that shooting one or two bad guys is not really going to do much.
 
Last edited:
Sometimes shooting one of the "leaders" of a gang will disperse the rest. However, others in the mob might be carrying and could return fire.

If this had happened in a municipality where our 2nd Amendment rights were not so grossly infringed upon, I think a CCW holder could've saved the boy's life. Then again, you can never completely account for the totality of circumstances, and there are far too many variables to accurately predict an outcome.
 
I'm surprised by the number of people who would want to get involved.

The last thing I would want is to get involved, then have to shoot five or six idiots in self defense. The DA would have a field day with that case, regardless of the law, it would still be a long and costly legal battle.

Seriously, guys. Get the hell out of Dodge (unless the supposed victim is someone you care a lot about, and you are willing to risk what I mentioned). Otherwise you don't know all the facts... seriously, dial 911 and get as far away as possible.
 
One thing that appears to be overlooked her is that this happened in Chicago. Therefore gunfire is not a legal option.

Now what would you do?,
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top