Police shoot homeowner six times

If you are not trained in cuffing then don't try it. Just try to detain the suspect until the police arrive. Make sure the dispatcher has information of what the home owner looks like. If it was my house and I saw a guy with a gun trying to break in, there wouldn't be any confusion on who was the bad guy because he would be dead and I would have been on the couch waiting unarmed for the police.

"Just use your head and stay calm". Good advice BUT I will put any firearm that I have up once I'm convinced the intruder is no longer in the house or in police custody. I will not be holding it in a ready position but I will be holding it.

As Jeff pointed out, handcuffing is one of the most dangerous things one can engage in. Some of the most compliant and docile subject can flip out and start swinging the moment that first cuff touches them. And consider this; they're fighting police officers they know both have weapons, OC spray, batons, knives, and self defense training. And they still fight.

How many people who think they can just handcuff an intruder are so equipped and trained? Not many I would bet. And Jeff made another good point. As soon as you have subdued the person and are effecting a "citizens arrest", you are 100% responsible for that person. So if you by chance shoot them after you've cuffed them or subdued them, guess who's getting the murder charge. You.

I don't understand why cuffing is such a big deal. The guy is on the ground, you are ten feet away with a gun pointed at his head, as far as he knows, you haven't yet called the cops and might not if he doesn't cooperate, and he'll probably be more than willing to put the handcuffs on himself. Make sure you've got a good view to make sure he isn't twisting his wrists to make it look like they are tight when they aren't.

My question is, since I would never want to take a human life under any circumstances unless my life or the life of my family's was in IMMEDIATE danger, is it against the law to order the man to leave and never come back and give the police a physical description and direction he left?

Never cuffed a non compliant subject before have you?

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Nope. Nor do I intend to.

You're going to hand him a very effective close quarters weapon? He most likely knows you can't legally shoot him for refusing to cuff himself.

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Yes, that is my intention. It is not my intention to get close enough for him to use it, unless he wants to throw it at me. I don't intend to allow the situation to progress to a place where that will matter.

And no. I can't shoot him for refusing to cuff himself. I can, however, shoot him for trying to stab me, and while I have no intentions of actually framing someone like that (putting a knife in his hand after shooting him) I have absolutely no qualms about leading him to believe that I would do so. Worst case scenario, he refuses. I'm no worse off than if I had simply kept covering him till the cops showed up.

My thought, however, is that if the guy is willing to stay there till the cops show up, he's probably gonna do what the guy with the gun says.

Now, some of this information may be inaccurate, and there may be further information that has not been revealed. But so far as anyone can tell from the news report, the homeowner did not do anything wrong, other than living in Maricopa County and being able to pass for hispanic from behind.

fixed it for you

My fantasy, however, is that if the guy is willing to stay there till the cops show up, he's probably gonna do what the guy with the gun says.


fixed it

What about the legal aspect, you are effecting what could be construed to be an armed kidnapping, false imprisonment and a slew of other stuff a motivated DA could through at you.

I've been a noncompliant person getting cuffed (training, not for real) and it's not as easy as CSI or Law and Order would have you think. But you go ahead with your bad self, oh and how does giving a weapon to the "victim" look to the jury.

"well Mr. Smith had the victim sitting in the living room when he decided to make the victim put on hand cuffs, our poor victim threw them back and Mr. Smith shot him 14 time because the was 'afraid for his life'.....

But hey, I don't know you, maybe you are 400lb of WWE muscle bound badness able to make small dogs cringe with a single look. All the supposed big head that train this stuff say NO.

I feel like due to the "rules" or guidelines of the forum, its being pigeonholed into a get on your knees regardless type situation. I think most people agree that nothing should of been done differently, quite frankly the cop rolled in and started shooting, period.

I think given the same situation I'd do the same thing and well depending on the house layout, you might not know exactly when the cop gets there because it could be a little hard to hear i.e. carpet and floors that don't squeak much.

The guy sounded like he did everything right...the cop didn't. I know its not supposed to be a discussion of personalities involved, but a guy comes in unannounced and starts shooting, you CANNOT prepare for that, period. That is unless you're willing to shoot at the cop.

So yeah, I don't think there is much to discuss on the S&T part because the guy did great, the cop..well I'll refrain from saying anymore. Is there a subforum we can actually discuss the article?

The entire purpose for having an HD weapon is to KEEP from getting shot or harmed, whether from the BG or LEO's. The entire focus of a homeowners actions must be to preserve self and family from harm from either group.

Apprehending a suspect is not part of that plan, and puts these objectives at risk, in the same way these homeowners were at risk. The ONLY way IMHO to avoid this risk is to get the BG out of the house. He leaves by all force necessary; this would be my primary and only objective. I will make no attempt to restrain him, and I will require that he leave by force. I doubt he sticks around.

Let's be real, folks. Even if you hold the BG and survive holding a weapon when the cops arrive, what are the odds the BG spends any meaningfull time locked up anyway?? Sorry to be a cinic, but that's how I see it.

We've had many discussions about cuffing and it is always pointed out that you could order the intruder to handcuff themselves. It is also pointed out that if the BG refuses there's nothing you can do legally to make them

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Heck, at this point it might be worth mentioning that a ballsy intruder could tell you to get stuffed right at the "kneel" command (you know, the command that comes somewhere in between "don't touch that weapon" and "palms up, knuckles down"...). It's even possible that you both could be looking at each other over the sights of your own gun for what seems like an eternity, if the guy is alpha enough. Maybe even until "Rookie 1 and 2" come in.

None of this is glamorous or good.

"When in doubt, let them out"; the sooner they're out of your crib, the better for *everyone* involved.

On the other hand, maybe they'll actually comply if you've made your point convincingly. As alluded to above, that's a whole new set of issues and another good reason to get a little training taking people at gunpoint.


At any rate, +1 on staying away from cuffing. Stay at a distance, period. Get behind cover if you can. If it comes to the point where cuffing would even be an option, then by definition you are holding someone at bay with a remote control weapon. Why give up that ace in the hole? Much better to just ride it out from a point where you can touch him, but he can't touch you back...

JMO.

The guy sounded like he did everything right...the cop didn't.

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With the possible exception of the homeowner taking cover (which always was a classic "good idea" even before the obvious snafu issue raised by this whole story), I'd agree, from what we can tell of it.

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=477432

I think this was already discussed/posted.

My fantasy, however, is that if the guy is willing to stay there till the cops show up, he's probably gonna do what the guy with the gun says.


fixed it

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Right, because the average person, when faced with someone with a gun, is going to simply spit in your face about it. The average person, criminal or not, will either challenge you, convinced that you are not going to pull the trigger (giving you not only the right but the moral high ground to shoot him), or try to escape, or do what you say to avoid being shot. Very few people are going to do otherwise, no matter what happens in your fantasies.

What about the legal aspect, you are effecting what could be construed to be an armed kidnapping, false imprisonment and a slew of other stuff a motivated DA could through at you.

I've been a noncompliant person getting cuffed (training, not for real) and it's not as easy as CSI or Law and Order would have you think. But you go ahead with your bad self, oh and how does giving a weapon to the "victim" look to the jury.

"well Mr. Smith had the victim sitting in the living room when he decided to make the victim put on hand cuffs, our poor victim threw them back and Mr. Smith shot him 14 time because the was 'afraid for his life'.....

But hey, I don't know you, maybe you are 400lb of WWE muscle bound badness able to make small dogs cringe with a single look. All the supposed big head that train this stuff say NO.

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First, no one is recommending shooting someone for not putting on the cuffs. I'd be more than happy to convince the BG that he's going to end up dead if he doesn't, but there's a big difference between that and actually killing someone for that.

Furthermore, I'd like to know, if I put 14 bullets into someone, just how the DA is going to know anything about what happened before hand. If I put 14 bullets in someone, it's going to be someone so messed up on drugs that I can empty my revolver, reload, empty it again, reload, and shoot him a few more times. Apparently, this guy doesn't feel the pain and isn't going down, but somehow, this guy can't get to me during my reloads. If someone is that messed up on drugs, I don't think I'm going to have any trouble in court proving that I was in fear for my life.

you read the recent post where the salesman for hk got charged by a guy AFTER firing a burst of full auto fire as a warning? if the b/g was as logical as you imagine he wouldn't be in your house to start with. he plays by rules that aren't covered in high school and no matter how much gta or halo you play its just not the same

you read the recent post where the salesman for hk got charged by a guy AFTER firing a burst of full auto fire as a warning? if the b/g was as logical as you imagine he wouldn't be in your house to start with. he plays by rules that aren't covered in high school and no matter how much gta or halo you play its just not the same

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A basic knowledge of human psychology (and many criminals are well educated in human psychology, having studied it extensively, not in school, but in the real world) will tell you that bluster is most often nothing more than a bluff. Someone who fires a warning shot normally does so in an attempt to scare someone into submission, because they won't be able to pull the trigger when it's pointed at another human being.

Anyway, that still fits what I said. He attacked, which is one of the three options I gave.

this thread has been discussed last week

Chaoss

you failed to address the legal issue of taking the person into your custody, which would be exhibited by trying to cuff them, if you hold them a gun point that is one thing, but shooting someone for refusing to cuff is, well, a no go, just like shooting the person for running away.

Trying to cuff the person is a no go. And finally, most of the criminals know the system MUCH better than you, no not a 16yo punk, but an older criminal that has been to prison and understand the legal escalation of force, does.