Would you gripe at a cop about poor muzzle control?

i would have told him in no uncertain terms that doing something that stupid could get him killed!

Click to expand...

Yeah, Riiiiiiight!

Would I gripe at a cop about poor muzzle control?

As agents of the STATE, LEO's ARE NOT our FRIEND. I avoid them like the plague. In the 3 instances I have had to deal with one in the last 40 years it's been yes sir, no sir, what ever you say sir. Safer that way - those guys can ruin your life in a matter of minutes.

So - I guess - the answer would be - NO!

Police officers get WAY to much credit. Has anyone every taken a look at "what it takes" to be an officer? if not:

Mimimum Age:

Must be at least 20 years and 6 months at time of written examination (contact a recruiter for minimum age exception).

Maximum Age:

Must not have reached 45 years of age at time of appointment to the Police Academy.

Education:

High School Diploma or
G.E.D. plus 12 college hours.
(Academic records must reflect a minimum overall grade point average of "C" of its numerical equivalent.)

Military Service:

Must have an Honorable Discharge.*
(Uncharacterized and Entry-Level discharges may be accepted and will be assessed on an individual basis.)

Citizenship:

Must be a United States Citizen at the time of application.

All applications are screened to determine if the applicant meets the minimum requirements and qualifies for further consideration.

Entrance Examination: At the time of application, cleared applicants will receive an entry letter listing the date, time, and place of the written examination as required by the Fire and Police Civil Service Commission, along with other pertinent information.

And now for the physical:
http://www.sanantonio.gov/sapd/PDF/R_FitnessTips.pdf

Don't get me wrong. I think we need police, and other LEO's for that matter. I just feel the qualifications should be a little higher. The problem with our country is now anyone can do or be anything. *sigh*

guys, i'm pretty sure the comment by Officer's Wife was sarcastic. read her other posts if you need evidence of her general stance on such matters. and "officer" means military, not police.

maybe y'all could take some of those chill pills yourself...

Police officers get WAY to much credit. Has anyone every taken a look at "what it takes" to be an officer? if not:

Mimimum Age:

Must be at least 20 years and 6 months at time of written examination (contact a recruiter for minimum age exception).

Maximum Age:

Must not have reached 45 years of age at time of appointment to the Police Academy.

Education:

High School Diploma or
G.E.D. plus 12 college hours.
(Academic records must reflect a minimum overall grade point average of "C" of its numerical equivalent.)

Military Service:

Must have an Honorable Discharge.*
(Uncharacterized and Entry-Level discharges may be accepted and will be assessed on an individual basis.)

Citizenship:

Must be a United States Citizen at the time of application.

All applications are screened to determine if the applicant meets the minimum requirements and qualifies for further consideration.

Entrance Examination: At the time of application, cleared applicants will receive an entry letter listing the date, time, and place of the written examination as required by the Fire and Police Civil Service Commission, along with other pertinent information.

And now for the physical:
http://www.sanantonio.gov/sapd/PDF/R_FitnessTips.pdf

Don't get me wrong. I think we need police, and other LEO's for that matter. I just feel the qualifications should be a little higher. The problem with our country is now anyone can do or be anything. *sigh*

Click to expand...

What it takes to get hired at the entry level of any job means nothing, it is the training and experience that makes the cop, not their qualifications for hire. The same could be said for any other job. My son knew nothing about planes, artillery, munitions, radios, triangulation, small unit tactics, and any number of other subjects that he is now thoroughly versed in and with nothing more than a high school diploma, plenty of training and experience, he's telling pilots what to shoot and clearing them to drop their bombs.

I don't know what you do for a living but I'm sure that the requirements for you to begin your school or training don't reflect your knowledge and abilities now.

I don't care who it is pointing a gun at me, I'm going to say something to them. Pretty sad people are so afraid of law enforcement they won't say anything when a LEO muzzle sweeps them. What if they almost ran you over with their car? Would you not say anything then? Police are just people, people with a ridiculous amount of power, but still people.

I used to but finally gave up. Twenty years ago when I was an aspiring pistolsmith I started taking in a lot of business from police officers and was shocked to see the lack of gunhandling skills displayed by the vast majority of them. Almost every time somebody handed me a pistol muzzle first that was loaded, it was an LEO. On several occasions I had rounds fired within a foot of my feet and legs by LEOs. I was swept constantly in my shop or at gun shows. I can't really blame these individuals simply because this is how they were trained. Weapons training at most police academies is as short and low cost as they can make it. It seems like cities don't think they need to spend much on their police department's training. Cars yes. Radar guns yes. Range time and ammo, nope. An incident occurred at a state run police training academy in my town where a recruit came off of a firing range and walked into a classroom area with tables set up for weapons cleaning. Said recruit sat down at a stall and proceeded to strip the issued pistol (a Glock which requires dry firing to remove the slide) and shot the recruit in the stall next to her. So here's a case where a recruit is allowed to walk off a firing line with a hot weapon with no range officer checking to insure weapons are cleared of ammo and mags. Then the recruit points the weapon at the recruit next to her and pulls the trigger. The most incredible part is that she then attempted to sue the academy for NOT teaching her not to do this. You can't make this stuff up folks. I still get very watchful anytime I see an LEO handling a weapon anywhere I am around. Some of them are gun people but most of them are not. This is the reason almost every police dept has a gun clearing barrel outside the officers entrance at departments today.

I still get very watchful anytime I see an LEO handling a weapon anywhere I am around. Some of them are gun people but most of them are not. This is the reason almost every police dept has a gun clearing barrel outside the officers entrance at departments today.

Click to expand...

Is this cop bashing really necessary? Their two hours of hit or miss training makes them far more qualified than your constant practice and familiarity!

from "Officer'sWife" :

HOW DARE YOU?????

LEO's are given the authority by the state to put any person in deadly risk for any reason. They know far better than you!

Click to expand...

I'm with kingpin (post #12)- I sincerely hope that you are kidding but I haven't seen you make a second appearance to defend such a ridiculus(sp?) remark.

Added later : I missed your post #33 just before mine.

Is this cop bashing really necessary?

Click to expand...

Most of the posts seem to much more thought-out than the flying-off-the-handle remarks that you've made.... and afterall, you did start this line of discussion.

Their two hours of hit or miss training makes them far more qualified than your constant practice and familiarity!

Click to expand...

This doesn't even make sense. Many folks on THR have had extensive training in and out of the military, LE and privately. Some have had none. I've compared my training and general time around firearms to 2 of my neighbors who are in LE (county & city) and they are both envious and wish their departments would spring for double or triple the amount that they get. Frankly, so do I!

A loud audible "WHOA!" and jumping back as you did, putting yourself in a defensive stance while looking at him in shock would have said far more than anything. A bit of a scene could educate him for life.

Their two hours of hit or miss training makes them far more qualified than your constant practice and familiarity!

Click to expand...

This doesn't even make sense.

Click to expand...

Sarcasm is utterly lost on the internet.

Anyone who breaks one of the four rules needs to be politely reminded. ANYONE.

A "can't say anything to them about it 'cause they're COPS" attitude doesn't help him to learn now or remember in the future -- and may just contribute to a terrible accident some day.

There are more examples of poor gun-handling by LEOs than we could ever share here (just as there are for the rest of society), but cops tend to be rather isolated from the larger gunnie community (few shoot for fun and even fewer compete or participate in other organized shooting activities) so, outside of qualifying, they have little exposure to best practices.

We non-LEOs compound that problem by adopting an "us-vs.-them" standoffishness, along with a certain level of intimidation which the uniform, and the authority of their position, fosters. We tend to act as thought we believe the "cop=professional" rhetoric, and some officers do, too. So, even when we see a gross violation of safety rules, we'll convince ourselves that it must be o.k., because he's a cop. Or, at the least, "well, I'd better not say anything because he's a cop and ... you never know!"

Instead of offering friendly conversation and a polite word of warning, we'll let things go and avoid any human contact with the officer -- as though, if you corrected or commented on his safety error he'd respond by cuffing you and charging you with some crime!

I'm not blaming anyone -- I've experienced these same thoughts. It is more comfortable to go with the "stay off his radar... don't say anything!" habit than it is to be (politely) bold and offer a friendly comment.

Just have to remember, cops are humans, civilians, and citizens, just like "us." Speaking to them as a friendly equal with something important to share not only may help break down their social isolation (must be one of the lonliest jobs in the world!), but might be a step toward saving someone's life someday.

-Sam

Depends on how he's carrying it. If he's got his hand over the receiver, big deal. If it's on a pistol grip and his finger is near the trigger, different situation.

I'll have to go with post#23, which would of just expressed my blood pressure rise at seeing a gun pointed at me, not in a hostile way, but one that would try an make the officer think....but...wasn't there an didn't see it...I would of liked to seen the gun on the shoulder myself, barrel pointed up...as for officers, no bashing, but there are smart one an not so smart ones, being an officer an caring a gun doesn't tell me anything about how safe or good you are, or how smart....My late Great Uncle Tucker was a Indiana State Trooper back in the day when they didn't have radio's in there cars...long time ago right! One day visiting the Wabash sheriff in his office, the sheriff was cleaning his pistol an it went off, believe it hit the desk or went through it hitting my Uncle in the badge, then going into the wall. The Badge saved his life...wonder what he said to the sheriff that day.....?

I am quite sure a "whoa, dude!" would have escaped my lips...following that I have no idea.

OP,
Write a formal letter of complaint to the Chief of whatever department was involved. Nothing will come of it because you don't have Jesus, Mary, and the twelve apostles as eye witnesses, but the officer in question will get jacked up good and will never do the same thing again.

Dannix, that's a good idea. Probably would have gotten the point across and made him feel pretty stupid at the same time.

When I did my Front Sight course, I was "muzzled" twice ... both times by cops.

The range master cut loose on 'em both times.

I would have asked him or her if he or she knew the Rules of Gun safety! Then I would Mention the fact that if I was the one that pointed my Firearm at Him or her, they would probably arrest me!

I have to laugh about this thread. Not about the muzzle awareness issue, but a few of the comments on how to handle something like that.

Officer's wife-

If your comments were meant to be sarcastic, I'd have to say you sound like my wife. If a LEO pointed his muzzle at her, she'd probably chew him up. She's not known for her tact. Probably why I love her.

She's the first one to notice muzzle awareness violations. One day, she was a guest instructor at my range and there were a few officers who found her totally lacking in patience when it came to lapses in gun safety. She bruised a few egos.... plus she outshot most of them.

Back to the OP. Yeah, I'd have said something to the officer. I'd have been polite and probably a lot more gentle than my wife would be, but I'd have spoken.

Claude Clay said:

"Ahhhh Officer---do you have any idea what you just did to my blood pressure pointing that shotgun at me?"

Click to expand...

Well played there Claude! A response like that would be ideal on a number of levels. It gets your point across to the officer, and it accomplishes that goal in a non-threatening way.

Honestly, I think this would be a hard issue for most folks to confront. Despite some claims by folks on here that they'd tell the officer how it would 'get him killed', I sincerely doubt that even 5% of the members on here would have said anything even remotely close to that bold statement!

I'm always annoyed when I'm swept by my fellow officers, and it happens far too often in the course of doing business. I will readily admit that I know we've all swept each other inadvertantly on occasion when clearing buildings, and while we attempt to avoid this behavior, it almost inevitably happens on occasion.

Where I really get annoyed is when I'm being swept by an officer who is just playing around with his/her gun. I hate to say it, but cops like to play with their "toys", and sometimes they don't do so in the most intelligent manner (case in point: we recently had an MDT ruined on a new car by an idiot who wondered if his Taser would do anything to it... Apparently Tasers and laptop computers don't go well together, in case any of you were wondering! Thus, where there is a stupid person with a will, there is nearly always a way).

To bring this back to the original point, I have found that it is really hard to tell someone who is on the upper end of your chain-of-command that you'd appreciate it if they could learn to handle a firearm in a more appropriate manner. Sometimes it does seem easiest to just walk away from the issue, though I suppose this probably just perpetuates the problems (as such, no one tells the division chief that he's an idiot, therefore he keeps acting like an idiot, and eventually he has an accident).

Just keep in mind that cops are not immune to stupid accidents, and a friendly reminder could be warranted, depending on how the situation went down! I've seen this firsthand simply by working in this industry. I know one cop who nearly died after he shot himself in the femur while stripping his Glock, and I know of another gal who gave herself the ol' "racing stripe" when she holstered her weapon with her finger in the trigger guard. Then we had the guy in my academy class who had two ND's in one shift, and that other guy who works on my shift who shot his locker at the station.

Muzzle control

...as an ex-training officer, I've had no problem correcting dangerous behavior with guns...to my rookies and others, I've been blunt and short...now as a citizen, I'd say something...but no need to be abrasive and irrational...true...that's how accidents happen....true...many cops aren't really gun savvy...but to make a pointed comment needn't start a war...choose your battles...

Would I gripe at a cop about poor muzzle control?

As agents of the STATE, LEO's ARE NOT our FRIEND. I avoid them like the plague. In the 3 instances I have had to deal with one in the last 40 years it's been yes sir, no sir, what ever you say sir. Safer that way - those guys can ruin your life in a matter of minutes.

So - I guess - the answer would be - NO!

Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this.

The police, the tax man, the social services, are not your friend. Best not to collide with any of them.

Not to mention, some people just go off the handle about anything. Its like a form of road rage. chill out, be glad he didnt blast off your valuables and move on.

Haven't really had this problem but if I ever say walk past one of the Hercules guys with those custom AR builds and he sweeps the muzzle in my face, if I'm not soiling myself, I might attempt to say something.

I'm a range officer at my club. We have STRICT safety rules for the range. It doesn't matter who you are. You obey the range rules or you find some place else to shoot.

Deanimator said:

I'm a range officer at my club. We have STRICT safety rules for the range. It doesn't matter who you are. You obey the range rules or you find some place else to shoot.

Click to expand...

Our club has similar rules in place. In fact, everyone has to take a safety class before joining. Cops, military, does not matter.