Swedish Police Point Shooting

Matthew:

I studied Swedish for a while in school and had some friends from Sweden. As you know, it's a different society with different problems than the US.

What kinds of threats are the Police facing in Southern Sweden? Hooligans, knife-wielders, Russian mafia? That might be a helpful data point in assessing the context in which they are deploying these techniques.

Curious,
David

The trouble with some "point shooting" is that, as shown in the video, it takes longer to get into the "proper position" than it would be bring the sights up to eye level.

That said, I do agree that there is a place for point shooting, but there is also a place for rapid sight acquisition. For some reason, most point-shooters don't think it's possible to be fast with sights, even at 5 yds.

DKK
You hit many of the relevant "human factors" effecting point-shooting. Good agnostic analysis.

I have never had the need to point-shoot in self defense so I can only talk about training but I am lucky in that I have a well-equipped range to work with. This allows me to practice against turning targets controlled by an accurate timer rather than imagining my results against stationary targets. The process is simple, start practicing with generous times then speed up as skill increases. Your time measurement comes from the target control unit, your accuracy is measured by the holes in the target. In this way it is simple to accurately measure performance changes. If your accuracy starts to deteriorate go back to the last exposure time you used and practice more.

I assure you, accurate (ten area) hits are possible, from the holster. with a one second turning target exposure, from 5 yards.

A better way to monitor your skill progression is to use a shot timer. It tells you far more than turning targets.

Matthew:
When I fired the trigger guard was against my hip after drawing from a Bianchi Judge front break & shortstopping forward momentum of the weapon. The perp was close enough to stick me with his knife If I hadn't fended him off the first time with my flashlight, second try and I drew & fired I swear the knife came out of thin air. Check my web page under Negrete.

That said, I do agree that there is a place for point shooting, but there is also a place for rapid sight acquisition. For some reason, most point-shooters don't think it's possible to be fast with sights, even at 5 yds.

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BINGO! It seems both sides are so intent on being right they don't take the time to teach the importance of BOTH techniques. There are time when movement, darkness, the proximity of the attacker, or other factors may make using your sights impractical so learning to point shoot is important for those times. There are other times when learning to use fast well AIMED fire is also important. Personally, I don't think there is any real difference in speed between the two but there is a time and a place for either.

Armsmaster270, I'm happy you are OK. Better him than you any day.

Back about 1954 when I was growing up, Cliff next door came home from the Army and an overlong tour of Korea. Dad talked him into going pheasant hunting. I was too young to carry a shotgun but worked the bottom of the levee ditches with the dog. Cliff shot every bird, 18 a day, for all three hunters. In that first week and a half Cliff never got his shotgun to his shoulder. He shot from the hip and the first two days or so he shot from a squat position with the shotgun at hip level, and not only was he generally too fast to see move, he almost never missed. He would drop a bird and get the shakes. More than once he would go over and throw up, but he stuck at it and by the end of the second week he could stand, take his time and shoot from the shoulder. I was thirty before I really started to read about Korea. Cliff had an M1 he kept loaded over his recreation room door and in 1972 I shot an M14 against him from bench at Camp Roberts in Calif. I shot on 3 Army rifle teams and I was more than adequate, Cliff was a RIFLEMAN who learned to point shoot under harsh conditions. If that qulifies as point shooting, engaging a target without loooking at the sights, and before an enemy can respond it's what got him back alive. Watching him I determined to learn before I went into Army, 1966.
Worked for him, worked for me.

blindhari
Sgt. Ranger
like my father before me

David,
With a shot timer you have already had time to acquire the target so you know where you are going to shoot when the buzzer sounds. We use a line of turning targets and an individual target in the line turns at random. You do not know when the target will turn, you do not know which one it will be, and you do not know for how much time it will face you. Target timing is adjustable in 1/2 second increments.

Mr Temkin,
Dad was a combat medic and after Cisterna (?) he was sent back and wound up the war as a medic on combat shock wards. My godfathers were two of the paitients there. My brother married the daughter of one of them and has been married for40 years now. I am still a little vague about exact current definition of point shooting. What my Father, godfathers, uncles and Cliff taught me is what I call muscle memory. Practicing until the weapon feels like an extension of you. In the Army and while hunting I have no memory of ever looking over the sights. All I really remember is knowing the shot was on and that I had to change position, after I pulled the trigger. When it counted all I had to do was decide when to take the shot. I had a Ruger single six that I could shoot rabbits with straight to the side and running, aK38 combat masterpiece that I never brought to eye level. I have a .357 Winchester trapper that seems to shoot Texas hogs with no help from me.

I am always amazed after I hear the bang and realise I made the shot.
My version of point shooting I guess

blindhari

My arguement regarding this video is NOT with "point shooting", but rather with the lack of technique displayed by the participants given the target size and range, and the lack of correction by the trainers.

This video seemed to be a perfect example of "check the block" training where the trainers fail to ensure that the trainee's fully understand, and are incorporating, the techniques advocated by the trainers for a specific sized target at a given range. This is generally an institutional problem common with public service and military due to a set schedule and budget, and due to the "good enough" factor common when training "the masses".

I have seen many of my peers who FAIL miserably to ensure that high standards are enforced during training, DESPITE the fact that they, as instructors, know better.

As far as point shooting, or ANY firing technique goes, the timer and the accuracy are the ONLY factors that matter for an individual. I don't care if a student deviates from a technique if it proves to be more consistantly accurate and faster, and, as a matter of fact, I will LEARN the technique that IS indeed faster and accurate despite my experience or ego.

David,
With a shot timer you have already had time to acquire the target so you know where you are going to shoot when the buzzer sounds.

Click to expand...

It depends how you set it up. Make the shooter start with back to target(s) and put "shoot/no-shoot" identifiers on them. That way, after the start signal, the shooter not only doesn't know which ones or how many need to be shot, they must identify each one as a threat or non-threat before shooting them.

We use a line of turning targets and an individual target in the line turns at random. You do not know when the target will turn, you do not know which one it will be..

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So, you train them to shoot simply by detecting MOVEMENT.....without requiring them to identify if it's a threat.........or not ?

It sounds like a neat set-up, but not one that very many people would have access to.

A shot timer, on the other hand, can be purchased by anyone. It's even useful for dryfire practice. It can tell you the time between shots, how long the reload was, reaction time, concealed draw, etc, etc, etc.

Clearly, both would be beneficial, if used properly.

...point shooting has its place...

...I taught my two older sons, now in the Army,while they were in early teens to point shoot by putting a 5 gal bucket with a rag over the end at one end of the bed...standing them at the other...having them bring the BB pistol up to about chest level, and shooting....got them both to where they could hit the bucket regularly without even seeing the sights...arms only partially extended or shooting one-handed...I was with my youngest (16) at the local gunstore recently and picked up a demo of a laser built on the grip of a plastic or clay pistol...told him to watch the door across the room to a closet...pointed from belt level and hit the laser...right on the doorknob first shot....lasers being more common now...it's a cheap and safe way to practice...and may or may not ever be needed...just one more skill in the bag....and, done safely, a lot of fun...

Matthew: I started with my dads pre 10 M&P.

David,

So, you train them to shoot simply by detecting MOVEMENT.....without requiring them to identify if it's a threat.........or not ?

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Whatever, you can use different target faces on different targets if you wish to get "shoot" or "no shoot". We actually use a variety of target faces in the line so that the Point of Aim changes with the target. Some targets big, some targets small, some bullseye target, some hostage targets.

The targets are expensive for individuals but not for a club. In fact, some clubs pay for the targets by selling time to PDs.

Good article here is a MUST read:

http://www.birdflumanual.com/resour...esentation to Police Firearms Instructors.pdf

Synopsis follows, but I advise you to read the whole article.

Col. Rex Applegate’s Presentation
To Police Firearms Trainers
On February 24, 1998 in Seattle, Washington

Colonel Rex Applegate has enjoyed an extraordinary
career as a world renowned leader on Close Combat
techniques, as knife designer, and as the foremost expert
on Riot Control. Applegate served in the U.S. Army
Military Intelligence, and was a member of the OSS
during World War ll. His book “Kill or Get Killed” is
the best selling book on unarmed and armed close
combat in history. The U.S. Marine Corps has reprinted
“Kill or Get Killed” as an official reference training
manual, and Applegate’s revolutionary knife fighting
and Point Handgun Shooting Techniques are in wide use,
earning the unparalled respect of of virtually everyone in
the police shooting and military communities. Applegate
is also the winner of the Outstanding American
Handgunner Award. His books include Kill or Get
Killed, Crowd & Riot Control, Point Shooting, Shooting
For Keeps, Scouting and Patrolling - and more!

...“Point shooting is the employment of the handgun in close quarter combat
without the need or use of the sights. Point Shooting, (contrary to some of these self-appointed gurus) is not some untested, untried theory!”

"...For those of you who do not know, I have long been an
advocate of the single hand point shooting technique, a
combat tested, historically proven, and authenticated
method of using the handgun in close quarter, life
threatening situations. It is diametrically opposed to most
of the basic precepts of the Weaver technique. Also,
believe me when I say that if there were any other proven
way to improve police handgun performance in close
combat, I would be for it, even if it involved standing on
your head. I hope that now you can approach this subject
with an ‘open mind.’ Remember, your main concern and
primary objective should always be how to teach your
officers and recruits to survive and successfully conclude
handgun firefights - which mostly occur at close quarters.
I am of the opinion that in the case of the sighted shot,
I would rely entirely on the isosceles stance. In my
opinion, any future successful police handgun training
program should be devoted to half isosceles and half point
shooting. I would entirely eliminate the Weaver stance
training for reasons which I will state later in the program.
There is an urgent need of an attitude change in the minds
of most trainers and in the law enforcement organizations
of this vital, basic subject..."

... "During the years 1972-92, there were 1,722 police officers killed in armed encounters. The following is a breakdown of the distances in which these officers were
fatally shot:

0-5 ft - 928 officers fatally shot (percentage is 53.89)
6-10 ft - 342 officers fatally shot (percentage is 19.68)
11-20 ft - 237 officers fatally shot (percentage is 13.77)
21-50 - 118 officers fatally shot (percentage is 6.85)
50 ft plus - 97 officers fatally shot (percentage is 5.63)

Colonel Applegate: “Proper training in combat point shooting achieves quicker expertise, does not necessitate so much retraining to maintain proficiency, saves more police lives, and takes more criminals off the streets. There has been too much concentration on
what is erroneously called the “new modern technique” promoted by self-appointed gurus instead of what is, and has been proven in combat!”

(In 1996, Colonel Applegate produced a video for Paladin called “Shooting For Keeps.” It covers in detail, point shooting techniques. Additional information may be found
on the blue sheet enclosed with your “Informed Source” Intelligence Newsletter.)

EPILOGUE
“During recent months, three national major state police agencies have adopted Point Shooting. The largest of these agencies is the California Highway Patrol (5,500 men).
They have just finished the training process and adopted the single handed point shooting technique for employment in the majority of police-criminal firefight
situations. In addition, one major Federal police agency and numerous small civil law enforcement agencies have also adopted the technique. The U.S. Military is currently
undergoing testing procedures so as to, once again, possibly adopt the technique which was abandoned shortly after WWII.” - Col Applegate

But beyond that getting good hits on a moving target is in my opinion a fallacy. You need well aimed, effective fire to end the threat.

Click to expand...

As Matthew said:

I have also had good results in FOF getting excellent hits on moving targets via one and two handed point shooting out to 8 yards or so,

Click to expand...

And I have to agree with him on this.

Recently a co-worker of mine was involved in a gunfight. His only training was in the Army 15 years ago with an M16. Never any kind of pistol training, only some plinking. His fight was typical conditions: night, in a parking lot, about 10 FEET distance, both parties moving, ducking, and dodging parked cars.

He fired 6 shots from a Ruger LCP and got three hits in the upper stomach/lower chest and one in the shoulder area. The gun was pulled in up beside his head/shoulder area and he was basically firing and hitting where he was looking, not aiming (remember, both were moving).

So, in this instance the .380 and point-shooting, both much maligned, did the job effectively. (FWIW, he got his gun back three days later and no charges were filed against him)

The problem with aimed fire (using the sights) is that most people don't use it when confronted with deadly force...they concentrate on the threat.

Mike Conti has a great book about point shooting entitled "Police Pistolcraft". He's a former instructor with the Massachusetts State Police.

As a former police instructor myself who taught the so-called Modern Technique for years, I got a rude awakening when our department starting incorporating video training and Simunitions. When confronted with a live person or a person on a video screen, I NEVER used my sights.

This type of training is much more realistic than banging away at the 25 yard line because it requires the shooter to make a decision in terms of when to shoot. It's common sense really...you gotta look at the suspect to decide if you're gonna shoot. When the eye focuses on the target it's extremely difficult to refocus on the front sight and impossible at night.

If you're planning on shooting at targets that don't shoot back like paper or steel, then by all means focus on the front sight and bang away. It is the most accurate way to shoot.

But if you're interested in learning how to hit a human being a ranges at 10 yards or less, take a look at Conti's book. It's definitely worth the read.

Another good related article:

http://www.janes.com/security/law_enforcement/news/ipi/ipi0306.shtml