bullturkey
Member
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2009
- Messages
- 140
I love my MAS 49/56 308 . I have it going with modified FAL mags. The difference in price I saved from other rifles I spent on ammo and could not be happier.
Semi-auto 7.62 recommendations?
- Thread starter dmancornell
- Start date
- Status
wally
Member
Under stress you revert to your training, that's why its done in the first place!
--wally.
I have talked to many WWII vets who have first hand experience with
the M1 Garand and they never mentioned any problems with the safety...
I have also spoken with many Vietnam vets who have first hand experience
with the M14 and they never mentioned any problems with the safety...
It appears that the only people that have a problem with the design of the
safety have little if any first hand experience with the M1 Garand and M14.
the M1 Garand and they never mentioned any problems with the safety...
I have also spoken with many Vietnam vets who have first hand experience
with the M14 and they never mentioned any problems with the safety...
It appears that the only people that have a problem with the design of the
safety have little if any first hand experience with the M1 Garand and M14.
rbernie
Contributing Member
That is a blatent slap in the face relative to several of my earlier comments:
I suggest that you take extreme care in how you characterize your argument. I will readily accept that others may hold differing opinions than my own, and I will never have quarrel with that. I will not, however, accept blatent misrepresentation or marginalizing of my own statements. You've been down this path before, and I'm not as forgiving as others.
These 308 cal rifle debates always end up harkening back to like 60 years ago, and WWII, and what veterans said, and what Patton said, and blah blah blah.
Me I compare guns based on my own personal experiances with em.
I DO however agree that a vastly different safety is a bad thing. In any situation. I would most likely go with a 308 AR-10 type, just because of similarity to the ar-15 operationally.
Edit: wow H20man thats amazingly great at 10 lbs, the last sage stocked one I shot was easily 14 lbs+. 10 is doable, 14 is... not. for me personally.
Me I compare guns based on my own personal experiances with em.
I DO however agree that a vastly different safety is a bad thing. In any situation. I would most likely go with a 308 AR-10 type, just because of similarity to the ar-15 operationally.
Edit: wow H20man thats amazingly great at 10 lbs, the last sage stocked one I shot was easily 14 lbs+. 10 is doable, 14 is... not. for me personally.
Last edited:
Wow, lots of attitude in this thread merely over ones opinion. Pardon us for not accepting your opinion as if it was gods himself...Seriously lighten up! We're supposed to be on the same side and your opinion is no more valid than anyone elses, Mod or not!
Anyway back to the isue at hand
I also feel that people assume the safety of Garands and M1As/M14s is seriously paid way too much attention too
It as easy as can be and plenty safe!
Anyway back to the isue at hand
I also feel that people assume the safety of Garands and M1As/M14s is seriously paid way too much attention too
It as easy as can be and plenty safe!
rbernie wasn't saying his opinion was more valid than anyone elses'. he and h20 both appealed to their discussions with former WW2 vets for evidence to support their position. Then h20 implied rbernie's opinion was less valid because he lacked personal experience.
Given the discussion two weeks ago on this same m14 safety issue, I'm somewhat surprised h2o would put his own experience back in the spotlight.
I've spoken to hundreds of WWII vets and none of them ever mentioned problems with the garand safety... but then, i didn't ask them about it. apparently it's not something they just start talking about out of the blue. mostly, i find they like to talk about farming and grand children
Given the discussion two weeks ago on this same m14 safety issue, I'm somewhat surprised h2o would put his own experience back in the spotlight.
I've spoken to hundreds of WWII vets and none of them ever mentioned problems with the garand safety... but then, i didn't ask them about it. apparently it's not something they just start talking about out of the blue. mostly, i find they like to talk about farming and grand children
Well, unless someone can produce a third party cite referencing the Garand style safety and users opinions of it, it's all heresay anyway and not worth arguing about.
The safety operation of the M14 style rifle is only one point in the rifle's selection. I'm not sure it's a show stopper for the person asking the original question.
Based on my own experience with just about every mainline 7.62x51 military rifle, I've settled on the M14 type after many FALs. For the non-military users who is not going to by in daily combat operations discussions about that venue are meaningless.
My own reasons for selecting the M14 type platform are as follows (YMMV)
Reasonable ergonomics, good to excellent accuracy, superb irons sights, good trigger, good reliability. I think that the other alternatives to this rifle often better it in a single category, but overall the M14 style rifle comes out on top.
Some observations about other rifles.
The FAL has better ergonomics for those accustomed to rifles with pistol grips. It is easy to field strip and parts are easy to obtain. Magazines are cheap and plentiful. The trigger is awful, and scope mounts are only fair. Like the M14, mounting a scope places the line of sight too high.
G3 clones: I am not a fan of delayed blowback rifles. Ejection is brisk and if the rollers are out of spec, locking can be dangerous. If you accidently let the bolt retract when the weapon is disassembled, you are screwed. Scope mounting is not positive, the sight ends up way too high and the trigger is crap. Many of the clones lack the quality control of the original German guns. The CETME I owned was utter crap.
AR-10. This rifle has all the positives and negatives of the AR-15. Accuracy is superb, and match grade triggers are easy to obtain. It makes a great target/precision rifle and it's easy to mount optics. The rifle is highly modular and easy to customize. In terms of reliability and durability it rates on the lower end of the rifles mentioned. This rifle requires more PMC than the others listed.
The safety operation of the M14 style rifle is only one point in the rifle's selection. I'm not sure it's a show stopper for the person asking the original question.
Based on my own experience with just about every mainline 7.62x51 military rifle, I've settled on the M14 type after many FALs. For the non-military users who is not going to by in daily combat operations discussions about that venue are meaningless.
My own reasons for selecting the M14 type platform are as follows (YMMV)
Reasonable ergonomics, good to excellent accuracy, superb irons sights, good trigger, good reliability. I think that the other alternatives to this rifle often better it in a single category, but overall the M14 style rifle comes out on top.
Some observations about other rifles.
The FAL has better ergonomics for those accustomed to rifles with pistol grips. It is easy to field strip and parts are easy to obtain. Magazines are cheap and plentiful. The trigger is awful, and scope mounts are only fair. Like the M14, mounting a scope places the line of sight too high.
G3 clones: I am not a fan of delayed blowback rifles. Ejection is brisk and if the rollers are out of spec, locking can be dangerous. If you accidently let the bolt retract when the weapon is disassembled, you are screwed. Scope mounting is not positive, the sight ends up way too high and the trigger is crap. Many of the clones lack the quality control of the original German guns. The CETME I owned was utter crap.
AR-10. This rifle has all the positives and negatives of the AR-15. Accuracy is superb, and match grade triggers are easy to obtain. It makes a great target/precision rifle and it's easy to mount optics. The rifle is highly modular and easy to customize. In terms of reliability and durability it rates on the lower end of the rifles mentioned. This rifle requires more PMC than the others listed.
rtn
Member
Got a Socom-16, open sights, no BS scope.
Use it as a truck gun and have no complaints.
Use it as a truck gun and have no complaints.
rbernie
Contributing Member
My opinion and experience is not worth any more than anyone else's. It's also not worth any less, which is the crux of my comments to H2O.
As an addendum to Tod's synopsis; I tend to favor optics, and that clearly sways me towards the AR platform. Of the choices, it's clearly the easiest and most natural to scope. I dunno that I buy into the notion that the AR10 requires more maintenance than any other choice; I honestly don't think that we actually know as much about the durability and longevity of the AR10 platforms as we do about the others.
Having said all of that, I also am a proponent of actually being able to carry my rifles all day. To that point, the Saiga is clearly easier to carry due to its lighter weight.
I find this comment puzzling. Most folk that want a range toy are more than willing and comfortable buying commercial sporter semiautos, e.g. BARs and 7600s and R1s and such. When folk start talking about military-style or military-pedigree semiautos, I can't help but make a leap of logic that performance in a military-type environment would be relevant.
ccsniper
member
Romanian PSL 
Presumably such use is indicative of the durability and/or reliability of a weapon when used hard. Even if one will not see combat such factors might still be important to them and thus the discussion is far from meaningless. It might also be indicative of other factors an potential purchaser might find important even if they will not be engaging in combat.
You really don't think that there is ANYONE who might have more "worthy" experience with such firearms?
We all have an opinion, but...
I don't know what rbe's personal experience is and I did not imply that he had a lack of experience.
The voicing of my opinion here is in no way shape or form an effort to diminish the opinion of anyone else including those of rbernie's.
I have not handled one of these, what does your .308 SAIGA weigh and how is it equipped?
I don't know what rbe's personal experience is and I did not imply that he had a lack of experience.
The voicing of my opinion here is in no way shape or form an effort to diminish the opinion of anyone else including those of rbernie's.
I have not handled one of these, what does your .308 SAIGA weigh and how is it equipped?
rbernie
Contributing Member
My last Saiga in 308 was converted back to AK form, with an Ace sidefolder and FBMG 20rd mags. Since the AK sights suck relative to the sights on the M1A, FAL, or CETME/G3, I normally ran an optic on the siderail using the BP02 low rail mount. The last optic I had on it was an Aimpoint CompM, although it often wore a Sightron SII 1.5x-6x/42. Weight for the setup was around 8.5lbs with an empty mag.
Total cost for the package ran me about $600 for the rifle, conversion, and Ace sidefolder. In fact, I sold my Polytech to pay for this setup and had enough cash left over to cover the Aimpoint optics setup.
Total cost for the package ran me about $600 for the rifle, conversion, and Ace sidefolder. In fact, I sold my Polytech to pay for this setup and had enough cash left over to cover the Aimpoint optics setup.
That sounds like a nice set-up and both the price and weight are outstanding.
Please post a picture or two of your rig.
Are these rifles readily available?
Is there a "conversion how to" thread for interested folks like me that don't know that much about the Saiga .308 rifle.
Thanks.
Pics of pretty rifles are all well and good, but pics of the rifle actually being shot are even better. Here are some pics of my FAL and me at the last Tactical Rifle match. I did pretty well considering I used a horribly inaccurate rifle . I hit the 400 yard plate on stage one 5 out of 5 time sans optics. Came in 18th but that was due to an epic fail on my part in stage 2. A bad day shooting is better than a good day on the internet.
Edit,
For whatever reason I am not able to attach more pics at this time. Will sort it out over coffee... more to come.
. I hit the 400 yard plate on stage one 5 out of 5 time sans optics. Came in 18th but that was due to an epic fail on my part in stage 2. A bad day shooting is better than a good day on the internet.Edit,
For whatever reason I am not able to attach more pics at this time. Will sort it out over coffee... more to come.
Attachments
rbernie
Contributing Member
Most minimally, conversion requires installation of AK-pattern FCG and installation of pistol grip. No magwell/mag release mods are required. If you want a proper muzzle device and handguard, you can buy the kit here: http://www.dinzagarms.com/index.html
It's gone, traded to somebody who wanted it mo' badly than I did. I had a pic of it up here several years ago, along with its 7.62x39 and 223 brothers, but the pics have evidently hit the bit bucket.
ETA - I've largely gotten out of the 308 semiauto segment as a regular thing, although I keep a few select examples squirreled away for a rainy day. I found that I am much more MC at the end of a day's walkabout if I'm hauling less than eight pounds of rifle and ammo. That, in turn, has led me to the intermediate chamberings such as 7.62x39 and 6.8SPC and the physically smaller platforms in which they are chambered.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5980906&postcount=43
I've moved most of my 308 shooting to bolt guns/single shots and the semiauto shooting to 6.8SPCs.
memphisjim
Member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2008
- Messages
- 1,265
m1 garand wouldnt be bad
Mr. Glenn,
In general, I agree with your summary, except
The CETME was the original, and the G-3 was based on it. Most of the problems U.S. shooters have had with CETMEs have been due to Century misbuilds.
John
In general, I agree with your summary, except
The CETME was the original, and the G-3 was based on it. Most of the problems U.S. shooters have had with CETMEs have been due to Century misbuilds.
John
M1a, my favorite 308. FN/FAL second, PTR91 third. All good rifles.
I have shot out three M1a barrels in competition. Back in the days when you started your rapid fire relays standing, I always engaged the safety before inserting my two round magazine. Come to think of it, I almost always put the safety on when reloading standing. I put my thumb in the trigger guard to push the safety forward once the bolt closed.
I never had an accidental discharge, though it could happen. Never heard of one, but then you do have a finger in front of the trigger.
I think these extended AR match bolt releases, the ones you stick your trigger finger through the trigger guard to punch, are unsafe. I have not heard of anyone having an accidental discharge with one, but again you have a finger inside the trigger guard and the safety is off.
I have shot out three M1a barrels in competition. Back in the days when you started your rapid fire relays standing, I always engaged the safety before inserting my two round magazine. Come to think of it, I almost always put the safety on when reloading standing. I put my thumb in the trigger guard to push the safety forward once the bolt closed.
I never had an accidental discharge, though it could happen. Never heard of one, but then you do have a finger in front of the trigger.
I think these extended AR match bolt releases, the ones you stick your trigger finger through the trigger guard to punch, are unsafe. I have not heard of anyone having an accidental discharge with one, but again you have a finger inside the trigger guard and the safety is off.
- Status
