Have "Rails", run their course in handguns
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kwelz
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I know some people complain about them but why have a weapon with reduced capabilities. I see more railed guns, not less.
Well, perhaps. I could never afford to put anything on my rails. Now I hear that people are getting away from mounted lights because they draw fire (which I knew but it'd be nice to have a free hand). I think with those that are now aware of the issue of drawing fire, more are probably seeing less use for the rails.
armoredman
Member
I haven't heard that, gunnutery, but I can ask around. I have a rail on my P01, never used it, but someday I'd like a dismountable light for home use.
Why with all the quotation marks? Are you implying that it isn't really as far as popularity goes?
Some of my pistols have rails, some don't, I've never put anything on a rail, and in general I think my pistols without tend to have cleaner lines compared to their railed brethren. CZ PCR is just a slick gun all around, and the Glock 27 definitely doesn't need a rail whereas the 23 possibly might. I'd be just as happy without the rails, but I don't believe rail or lack of a rail has ever had any impact on whether or not I bought a pistol.
Some of my pistols have rails, some don't, I've never put anything on a rail, and in general I think my pistols without tend to have cleaner lines compared to their railed brethren. CZ PCR is just a slick gun all around, and the Glock 27 definitely doesn't need a rail whereas the 23 possibly might. I'd be just as happy without the rails, but I don't believe rail or lack of a rail has ever had any impact on whether or not I bought a pistol.
armchairQB
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And have a weapon with no holster selection.
John Parker
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Ragnar Danneskjold
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No. To me, and to many gun buyers such as police departments, guns are tools first. Most who oppose rails do so for aesthetic reasons. To one who is buying a gun for its use as a tool, that is generally irrelevant. I agree with the poster who mentioned not buying a gun with reduced capabilities. I carry a G19 with a weapon-light on the rail and have a holster designed to carry this combination. I would not trade these capabilities for anything, no matter how ugly others may think it is. It's a tool, not a piece of art. There will still be guns made to look pretty with wood and carvings and all that for those who want something to put in a case for display. For those who want the most capable tool they can get, rails are here to stay.
I don't think so. I have rails on most of mine, although the only one in use right now is the one on my Glock 21SF. I keep a TLR-2 light/laser combo on it and use it as my HD weapon. Just because it's on there doesn't mean you have to use it; the situation will dictate its use or not, so I'm not worried about drawing fire. The TLR-2 can be swapped to any of the other railed weapons if I need or want to do so. Why limit yourself if you don't have to?
As far as holsters, I haven't found any of my guns to be lacking in holster choices. Galco, Crossbreed, Comptac, Desantis, etc all make holsters for all kinds of railed weapons.
As far as holsters, I haven't found any of my guns to be lacking in holster choices. Galco, Crossbreed, Comptac, Desantis, etc all make holsters for all kinds of railed weapons.
LightningMan
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IMHO, rails are here to stay, like it or not, as I think it will become harder to find a semi-auto pistol without a rail. With the few exceptions being very small concealable pistols like the LCP, P3AT and others. LM
jad0110
Member
Actually, I think the exact opposite is taking place. People look at me all funny when I say that my defensive handguns don't have rails; some have looked at me like I'm completely out of my mind when the find out they are "old man six shooters".
M2 Carbine
member
I don't think so, I think the opposite is true. I think as more and more people see the advantage of gun mounted lights and laser/lights, especially on HD guns, the rail becomes a necessity.
I wish several of my older pistols had rails.
After some years using using gun mounted lasers and laser/lights ALL of my defense guns are equipped with them, if available.
Not having a rail can be a deal breaker when I'm buying a new pistol.
I must say though, I think the pistol rails are ugly.
Every time I introduce someone to the rail mounted laser light the reaction is, I want one of them.
MICHAEL T
Member
No rails on my pistols
I think rails will stick around because they provide a vital functionality. It allows the user to have a weapon light and/or a laser mounted.
Holding a flashlight in your free hand and your firearm in your strong hand has some strong disadvantages. One, you are out of hands. This limits your ability to engage in other activities you need your hands for such as holding the phone/calling the police, opening doors, and engaging in a close quarter confrontation. That last one, may or may not require a free hand, but there could be an instance where the perp manages to jump out and grab hold of your gun, alternatively its conceivable that the perp poses a sufficiently limited risk that you may chose to use less than lethal force in dealing with them (i.e. 11 year old, unarmed gang banger). Secondly, you have to consider the design of your flashlight. I have one (non-gun light) which has a depress for momentary/press for on switch. I find the switch a little tight for turning it on in the continuous mode. Another switch system that I have seen uses a depress for momentary/turn for continuous switch. Turning the dial with only one hand (while holding the flashlight between your ring and middle finger - to allow some off-hand support for your weapon) is near impossible. Lastly, there is an increase likelihood of dropping your light. That can be pretty bad. Imagine it falling downstairs while you are at the top.
Not using a flashlight is also not a great idea. Sure sometimes it'll work, but not always, particularly not if you have to move around your house. If your house is totally dark, and you use no light, then there is a chance that you will stumble on the BG and give him a chance to wrestle your weapon away. Sure you have the advantage moving - your know your house and they don't, so they are more likely to bump into stuff. But that is reversed if they hold their position and listen to your footsteps. (This may be less of an issue if they are downstairs and you have an accessible phone upstairs).
Most houses are not perfectly dark, however. In fact there is often enough light from the clocks on various appliances, moonlight, street light in urban situations, and other external lighting such as your own motion activated lights to allow a person to be silhouetted while moving in front of a window or light colored wall. That once again mean that if the BG stops while you are moving he has an advantage. Even if he moves close enough to you to dash/shoot at you while you move towards the phone, the moment you continue your motion while he is stopped he has the advantage.
You could turn on the lights, but that creates the same problems. If you close your door and wait for the cops to show (assuming you have a phone in your room), the BGs can either make out with your belongings, with you being useless as a witness, or bust into your room. In that situation neither party will have a light advantage. If you are mobile during the incident whether its to investigate a bump in the night, to access a phone, or to engage the target, you are likely to give the advantage to the BG once you turn on the light. Most switches are in the same room/hallway as the lights which they turn on. So when you turn one on you are at least somewhat illuminated, but the perp may be difficult to make out in a less lit area. Also, in houses with an open floor plan, when you are in an illuminated area coming around a corner into a less illuminated area, your shadow will often fall on a wall visible from the less illuminated area. Similarly, the windows in an illuminated area serve as mirrors that can be viewed from nearby rooms/hallways. So if you turn on interior lighting you can be observed indirectly and give the advantage to the BG.
That leaves the option of having a light on your weapon. Gunutery is right in that they can be used to target you. However, running down an alley with your light on, and moving inside your own house are two different things.
In an alley there may still be shadows in which it is difficult to make out an individual & and a person may be outside the range of your light. In your own house the longest straight line is unlikely to be more than 40 - 50 feet and thanks to the walls & ceilings a good weapons light (typically in the 120 lumen range) will illuminate the entire space well enough. That means that if you turn the light on at corners, staying partially concealed behind corners, doors, etc to avoid presenting a silhouette, the BG will see you once you turn on your light. You will see the BG once you turn your light and scan the area - around the kitchen counter, the door way at the back, etc. So that gives the BG(s) an advantage of only a fraction of a second, and that may be partially offset by the dazzling effect of your light. We will assume that you and the BG have a similar reaction time. So the critical aspect will be who has the better accuracy. If the BG fires first, he may only have a general direction as a reference due to the dazzling effect of the light and lack of any clear visibility beyond the light. You will have the advantages of not being dazzled and using your sights. This would stack the odds more or less evenly. Doing down a hallway, where there is only one direction to focus on, you may even have a slight advantage.
Additionally, there are the benefits of a laser which may be mounted on your gun, even in the absence of a light. These advantages partially carry over to the daytime.
I think that a traditional, steal gun such as a 1911 looks nice without rails. However, firearms such as Glocks which are "boxy", for lack of a better word, around the slide, look better with a rail rather than a curved frame. At least that's my take on it. So in terms of aesthetics, its a toss up. It depends on the gun. But when practicality is factored in, rails offer strong benefits that should not be overlooked.
Holding a flashlight in your free hand and your firearm in your strong hand has some strong disadvantages. One, you are out of hands. This limits your ability to engage in other activities you need your hands for such as holding the phone/calling the police, opening doors, and engaging in a close quarter confrontation. That last one, may or may not require a free hand, but there could be an instance where the perp manages to jump out and grab hold of your gun, alternatively its conceivable that the perp poses a sufficiently limited risk that you may chose to use less than lethal force in dealing with them (i.e. 11 year old, unarmed gang banger). Secondly, you have to consider the design of your flashlight. I have one (non-gun light) which has a depress for momentary/press for on switch. I find the switch a little tight for turning it on in the continuous mode. Another switch system that I have seen uses a depress for momentary/turn for continuous switch. Turning the dial with only one hand (while holding the flashlight between your ring and middle finger - to allow some off-hand support for your weapon) is near impossible. Lastly, there is an increase likelihood of dropping your light. That can be pretty bad. Imagine it falling downstairs while you are at the top.
Not using a flashlight is also not a great idea. Sure sometimes it'll work, but not always, particularly not if you have to move around your house. If your house is totally dark, and you use no light, then there is a chance that you will stumble on the BG and give him a chance to wrestle your weapon away. Sure you have the advantage moving - your know your house and they don't, so they are more likely to bump into stuff. But that is reversed if they hold their position and listen to your footsteps. (This may be less of an issue if they are downstairs and you have an accessible phone upstairs).
Most houses are not perfectly dark, however. In fact there is often enough light from the clocks on various appliances, moonlight, street light in urban situations, and other external lighting such as your own motion activated lights to allow a person to be silhouetted while moving in front of a window or light colored wall. That once again mean that if the BG stops while you are moving he has an advantage. Even if he moves close enough to you to dash/shoot at you while you move towards the phone, the moment you continue your motion while he is stopped he has the advantage.
You could turn on the lights, but that creates the same problems. If you close your door and wait for the cops to show (assuming you have a phone in your room), the BGs can either make out with your belongings, with you being useless as a witness, or bust into your room. In that situation neither party will have a light advantage. If you are mobile during the incident whether its to investigate a bump in the night, to access a phone, or to engage the target, you are likely to give the advantage to the BG once you turn on the light. Most switches are in the same room/hallway as the lights which they turn on. So when you turn one on you are at least somewhat illuminated, but the perp may be difficult to make out in a less lit area. Also, in houses with an open floor plan, when you are in an illuminated area coming around a corner into a less illuminated area, your shadow will often fall on a wall visible from the less illuminated area. Similarly, the windows in an illuminated area serve as mirrors that can be viewed from nearby rooms/hallways. So if you turn on interior lighting you can be observed indirectly and give the advantage to the BG.
That leaves the option of having a light on your weapon. Gunutery is right in that they can be used to target you. However, running down an alley with your light on, and moving inside your own house are two different things.
In an alley there may still be shadows in which it is difficult to make out an individual & and a person may be outside the range of your light. In your own house the longest straight line is unlikely to be more than 40 - 50 feet and thanks to the walls & ceilings a good weapons light (typically in the 120 lumen range) will illuminate the entire space well enough. That means that if you turn the light on at corners, staying partially concealed behind corners, doors, etc to avoid presenting a silhouette, the BG will see you once you turn on your light. You will see the BG once you turn your light and scan the area - around the kitchen counter, the door way at the back, etc. So that gives the BG(s) an advantage of only a fraction of a second, and that may be partially offset by the dazzling effect of your light. We will assume that you and the BG have a similar reaction time. So the critical aspect will be who has the better accuracy. If the BG fires first, he may only have a general direction as a reference due to the dazzling effect of the light and lack of any clear visibility beyond the light. You will have the advantages of not being dazzled and using your sights. This would stack the odds more or less evenly. Doing down a hallway, where there is only one direction to focus on, you may even have a slight advantage.
Additionally, there are the benefits of a laser which may be mounted on your gun, even in the absence of a light. These advantages partially carry over to the daytime.
I think that a traditional, steal gun such as a 1911 looks nice without rails. However, firearms such as Glocks which are "boxy", for lack of a better word, around the slide, look better with a rail rather than a curved frame. At least that's my take on it. So in terms of aesthetics, its a toss up. It depends on the gun. But when practicality is factored in, rails offer strong benefits that should not be overlooked.
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I'll add that a light mounted on a gun shined around a room, and just a light shined around a room look pretty much the same on the bright side. Its a giveaway that you're there, and that you have a light, but its not advertising that you have a gun.
Putting myself in the BG's shoes, I think if i were caught in someones house I'd try to run, if I were caught and realized the homeowner was armed, I'd probably want to disable/slow them and then run rather than risk being shot outright by a pissed off 'hero'.
Putting myself in the BG's shoes, I think if i were caught in someones house I'd try to run, if I were caught and realized the homeowner was armed, I'd probably want to disable/slow them and then run rather than risk being shot outright by a pissed off 'hero'.
fastbolt
Member
Rails allow for options. It might be fair to consider that having options can be better than not having options.
Ever since we replaced our older pistols with new models which are equipped with rails I've seen increasingly more folks choosing to hang lights on them.
I've also seen an increase in the number of folks who are complaining about broken bulbs, broken/loose spring clips, 'frosted over' lenses, etc.
It's been said that handguns are a compromise.
In that sense it shouldn't be surprising that attaching another piece of equipment to a handgun can add its own potential for further compromise.
Ever since we replaced our older pistols with new models which are equipped with rails I've seen increasingly more folks choosing to hang lights on them.
I've also seen an increase in the number of folks who are complaining about broken bulbs, broken/loose spring clips, 'frosted over' lenses, etc.
It's been said that handguns are a compromise.
In that sense it shouldn't be surprising that attaching another piece of equipment to a handgun can add its own potential for further compromise.
Dallas Jack
Member
I have several guns with rails but I have never bought a gun because of the rail. The guns I bought just happened to have them. I personally perfer not to have the rail. On the other hand my bedside gun has a rail so I spent the $80 for a Streamlight TLR-3 to go on it. Seems to work OK.
Dallas Jack
Dallas Jack
tomwalshco
Member
Rails are for fun. Lasers are fun, lights are fun, hunting is fun. Somebody breaking in your house is not fun. In a situation like that, if you think you'll be calm enough to find tiny little switches and fumble around with a bunch of levers then try doing it in the middle of a freeway at rush hour. I'd prefer to spend my money on a big dog that hates strange noises......
Muzzle flash in a dark room - where'd that laser dot go ????
My home defense tactics:
1) a nervous dog
2) a 12ga pump
3) anything else that will shoot without having to read the directions
Muzzle flash in a dark room - where'd that laser dot go ????
My home defense tactics:
1) a nervous dog
2) a 12ga pump
3) anything else that will shoot without having to read the directions
Yo Mama
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- Jun 4, 2008
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1. Tiny switches? I have a nice long pressure pad connected to the pump that makes it much easier for me to use another hand instead of holding a light, which would be hard with a long gun.
2. Muzzle flash can be significantly reduced with proper loads designed for this.
Averageman
Member
+1 Tomwalshco
I used to tell my wife when I was deployed, lock the bedroom door everynight.
If you hear a noise grab the baby and go in the bathroom and lock that door. Go from the bathroom to the walk in closet and lock that door, then place the shotgun under the door knob and sit against the wall, if the knob turns, reach over and pull the trigger.
I have no intention of clearing the house when an alarm system, a doberman with PMS and a burgler all converge.
Lights may be handy for LEO's but I will sit and wait for that doorknob to turn and /or the LEO's to show up.
I would rather laugh and give that dog a milk bone as I fill out the insurance forms than worry about a light and clearing a room.
I used to tell my wife when I was deployed, lock the bedroom door everynight.
If you hear a noise grab the baby and go in the bathroom and lock that door. Go from the bathroom to the walk in closet and lock that door, then place the shotgun under the door knob and sit against the wall, if the knob turns, reach over and pull the trigger.
I have no intention of clearing the house when an alarm system, a doberman with PMS and a burgler all converge.
Lights may be handy for LEO's but I will sit and wait for that doorknob to turn and /or the LEO's to show up.
I would rather laugh and give that dog a milk bone as I fill out the insurance forms than worry about a light and clearing a room.
M2 Carbine
member
ABSOUTELY RIGHT!!!!!!!!!
The same thing with lasers.
I get SO TIRED of hearing that stuff.
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