rmfnla
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My point had nothing to do with hitting stuff behind the target. A bullet that goes through the target is taking energy with it, and I want that energy going towards shutting down the BG.
JHP vs FMJ for Defense.
- Thread starter bg226
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Based on tests I've seen, a typical JHP will go through multiple residential walls just fine, usually without opening up at all. Expansion and controlled penetration in the intended sense typically doesn't happen with harder materials unless the material is so hard that a FMJ or plain lead bullet would also flatten out (seen that, too). JHPs only work properly when they encounter a soft, wet material such as flesh--only then are they less likely to overpenetrate. This is actually a good thing for those who may need bullets to penetrate barriers before hitting concealed chunks of flesh that are up to no good.
In general, the type of bullet one chooses depends on the caliber, the target, and the intended effect (e.g. depth of penetration, width of the cavity created, etc.). For self-defense against humans and other critters, adequate penetration is probably the most important factor, followed by the width of the permanent cavity, and finally secondary effects such as the temporary stretch cavity. If a caliber is on the small side for a particular critter, then FMJ bullets might be necessary to achieve sufficient penetration, and would therefore be the optimum choice. If a SWC can penetrate enough, then it might be preferable as it tends to crush the flesh in its path more (a wide meplat seems to help).
The purpose of JHPs is to transform excess penetration into extra permanent cavity width, which is a good thing but only when there actually is excess penetration. If forced to defend myself from a bear or moose with a "puny" .40 S&W or .45 ACP handgun, for example, I'd use a solid, heavy, and physically hard type of bullet. At least then I'd have a half-decent chance of getting penetration to vital tissues--with JHP, I might as well turn the gun on myself (kidding
). For defense against humans (loosely speaking), I prefer at least 14" of penetration because some people are quite big these days, and I'll take whatever expansion I can get along with that, which is always a trade-off; given the option, I'd rather slightly overpenetrate than underpenetrate.Nothing I've said here is absolute in my own mind, by the way--admittedly it's what I've gathered mostly from reading from a wide variety of sources, and hard, reliable data is difficult to come by for most people.
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It doesn't matter to me whether they're bleeding on the outside or the inside.
shot placement--quantum leap above all else
That's true even with a .50 BMG (although this caliber does offer a greater margin than smaller ones).
gglass
Member
I am of the opinion that if anyone is on the fence in deciding between FMJ or JHP, they should just make the move to FMJ ammo now... It works for the World's armed forces, so it must be good enough for anyone fretting over the choice.
Besides, that will free up all those wonderful hollow points for more informed shooters of the world.
Besides, that will free up all those wonderful hollow points for more informed shooters of the world.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
9mm is a cartridge that really needs hollowpoints. I only carry JHPs for serious business and leave the FMJs for practice shooting.
I have never heard one convincing argument that would convince me to carry FMJs in any of my 9mms. The only way I would is if I had NO JHPs. I've even heard guys practically wave a copy of the FBI Wound Ballistics Study claiming it says you should use FMJs but I have never found that idea supported by the study. I think its pretty well accepted that JHPs are in general a better choice for Self defense and a more responsible choice to prevent over penetration.
Deanimator
Member
"Works"? If by that you mean "imposed by international convention", I guess so. I'm not a signatory to the Hague Conventions. Neither are my local police nor any carjackers, home invaders or rapists of which I'm aware.
I may be misinformed, but I believe the reason NATO countries use the FMJ is because they are less likely to mortally wound a person and more likely just to incapacitate the soldier by passing through. Hence taking 2 or 3 shoulders out of the fight in caring for the wounded. If you are all about being Politically Correct go a head and use the FMJ, however I think if you do that you really are uniformed and you didn't pay attention to what the majority of the people on this site are saying, which is in my opinion correct. And I do agree with the argument of FMJ in woods in some cases where penetration is the desired goal, but on a bad guy give yourself the best chance possible to stop the threat.
Magnumite
Member
"The shameless popular gun press will probably continue to provide a forum for the Marshall & Sanow nonsense in the interests of selling magazines. One can reasonably hope that the target audience for this material will henceforth be only the kind of eccentrics that become involved with the all too common irrational cults so prevalent in our society."
So everyone using a JHP is part of an irrational cult?
This debate on the Marshall book continues. Granted, it is criticized for data source shortcomings and statistical invalidity, shot placement, .... Yet it definitely shows trends of effectiveness in ammunition. And alllllll those police departments and gov't agencies use JHP's after extensive testing or research just to be in ammo fashion.
As others have stated, match the ammo to the need.
So everyone using a JHP is part of an irrational cult?
This debate on the Marshall book continues. Granted, it is criticized for data source shortcomings and statistical invalidity, shot placement, .... Yet it definitely shows trends of effectiveness in ammunition. And alllllll those police departments and gov't agencies use JHP's after extensive testing or research just to be in ammo fashion.
As others have stated, match the ammo to the need.
scoutsabout
Member
9mm
Being continually curious about bullet design, I've been reading up on it for the last 12 years.
From everything that I've read, the exhaustive opinion on 9mm is that hollow point construction not only performs better against living tissue, but it is also considered instramental in attaining that performance. Also, over-penetration is thought to be minimized -- only to be greately "under" performed by pre-fragmented projectiles.
The .45 ACP, on the other hand, is reputed to be marginalized in its effectiveness between FMJ and JHP. The hollow is reputed to perform only slightly better. Over-penetration is generally reputed to be marginalized between the bullet types... again, with pre-frag making them both look bad.
The consensus, as far as I've seen it:
1. The 9mm must expand for decent terminal effects and minimized liability.
2. The .45 ACP performs almost as well in FMJ, but hollows help minimize liability.
I won't claim any expert opinion on this, it's just what I've read of other people's research over the last 12 years. I have focused on finding fact-based, official, professional analysis, and have disregarded unscholarly sources.
Do your own research. Become your own expert. Nobody can pull the trigger for you.
For me, it's just as easy to carry a .45 ACP as it is a 9mm... so it's a no-brainer. If I carry anything outside of .45 ACP for defense, it is the .380 because I can get it into a pocket gun for backup or deep conceal. Still, if I can get to the 12 gauge shotgun, it will be a much better show stopper.
Being continually curious about bullet design, I've been reading up on it for the last 12 years.
From everything that I've read, the exhaustive opinion on 9mm is that hollow point construction not only performs better against living tissue, but it is also considered instramental in attaining that performance. Also, over-penetration is thought to be minimized -- only to be greately "under" performed by pre-fragmented projectiles.
The .45 ACP, on the other hand, is reputed to be marginalized in its effectiveness between FMJ and JHP. The hollow is reputed to perform only slightly better. Over-penetration is generally reputed to be marginalized between the bullet types... again, with pre-frag making them both look bad.
The consensus, as far as I've seen it:
1. The 9mm must expand for decent terminal effects and minimized liability.
2. The .45 ACP performs almost as well in FMJ, but hollows help minimize liability.
I won't claim any expert opinion on this, it's just what I've read of other people's research over the last 12 years. I have focused on finding fact-based, official, professional analysis, and have disregarded unscholarly sources.
Do your own research. Become your own expert. Nobody can pull the trigger for you.
For me, it's just as easy to carry a .45 ACP as it is a 9mm... so it's a no-brainer. If I carry anything outside of .45 ACP for defense, it is the .380 because I can get it into a pocket gun for backup or deep conceal. Still, if I can get to the 12 gauge shotgun, it will be a much better show stopper.
bb21 - Actually, I believe the Hague Convention bans the use of ammunition designed primarily for its expanding characteristics to prevent the kind of terminal performance (physical damage) that we are looking for in a SD round (non-expanding projectiles are more humane). When I am defending myself or family I could care less about humane.
As a side note: The convention can be circumvented legally if you are firing expanding ammo not specifically for its expanding characteristics; for example, snipers have been cleared to fire match HP projectiles because they are more accurate not for their terminal performance.
As a side note: The convention can be circumvented legally if you are firing expanding ammo not specifically for its expanding characteristics; for example, snipers have been cleared to fire match HP projectiles because they are more accurate not for their terminal performance.
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The implication here is that the additional 2.5 mm width of the .45 ACP projectile crosses some sort of threshold into severely diminishing returns. I don't know, all of these bullets seem pretty small to me. Common sense would suggest that with typical aiming precision, any increase in the diameter of the permanent wound channel would increase the chance of hitting something vital. I don't see how FMJ .45 ACP could significantly outperform FMJ 9mm (0.356") yet not be outperformed by JHP 9mm that expands to 0.6+", let alone the much larger diameter of an expanded JHP .45 ACP (some types to 1"). I know that you're not claiming to be an expert and that you're just telling us what you've read, but I sense a bias toward .45 ACP by those who came to these conclusions--supposedly it's so ideal that even quadrupling the volume of the wound channel with JHP bullets won't improve its performance...right....
True, but even with a 12-gauge, there are still different types of loads to consider. I think that similar principles apply: first get "enough" penetration, then maximize the pellet count.
"I won't claim any expert opinion on this, it's just what I've read of other people's research over the last 12 years. I have focused on finding fact-based, official, professional analysis, and have disregarded unscholarly sources."
+1 the OP has asked for evidence.
+1 the OP has asked for evidence.
481
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As this thread starts to devolve into the inevitable "9mm vs. .45ACP" debate, I cannot help but think of the trifling differences between the two calibers.
When constrained (per the OP) to FMJs in either caliber, penetration in calibrated 10 % ordnance gelatin is actually quite similar:
-9mm 115 gr. FMJ @ 1155 fps penetrates 25-27 inches
-9mm 124 gr. FMJ @ 1120 fps penetrates 27-29 inches
-9mm 124 gr. FMJ (M882) penetrates 29-31 inches
and...
.45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ @ 835 fps penetrates 24-26 inches
...so, other than a few inches of "extra" penetration (from the 9mm) neither caliber offers much over the other. One is larger diameter (.45), the other penetrates deeper (9mm). Big deal.
When we exceed the OP's constraints for debate, even the best 9mm JHPs and .45 JHPs perform equally; an example being the Winchester Ranger line which offers well designed JHPs in both calibers penetrating to nearly identical depths while expanding to equal diameters with surprising consistency and meeting the FBI test protocols. (if that is important to you to begin with)
When constrained (per the OP) to FMJs in either caliber, penetration in calibrated 10 % ordnance gelatin is actually quite similar:
-9mm 115 gr. FMJ @ 1155 fps penetrates 25-27 inches
-9mm 124 gr. FMJ @ 1120 fps penetrates 27-29 inches
-9mm 124 gr. FMJ (M882) penetrates 29-31 inches
and...
.45 ACP 230 gr. FMJ @ 835 fps penetrates 24-26 inches
...so, other than a few inches of "extra" penetration (from the 9mm) neither caliber offers much over the other. One is larger diameter (.45), the other penetrates deeper (9mm). Big deal.
When we exceed the OP's constraints for debate, even the best 9mm JHPs and .45 JHPs perform equally; an example being the Winchester Ranger line which offers well designed JHPs in both calibers penetrating to nearly identical depths while expanding to equal diameters with surprising consistency and meeting the FBI test protocols. (if that is important to you to begin with)
hinton03- My point is that NATO countries follow the Hague guidelines, because they think it is more "humane" as you put it. I am saying that is exactly why we should use hollow points because they work better to stop a threat by causing more damage to them, ie making their breath or blood leak out until they are dead.
MCgunner
Member
Always JHP, never ball, even in .45 Colt, let alone 9x19.
Total myth. If this were true, wouldn't the military train soldiers to shoot for the arms or legs of the enemy rather than center of mass?
As for me, I use HP's for my carry gun. If it doesn't expand than I am no worse off than if I used FMJ (it ain't gonna get smaller) and if it does expand that's a bonus
Of course, this assumes you have tested your gun with your hollow point of choice and you know it will feed reliably.
scoutsabout
Member
Hmm... I don't think I was being very clear. Sorry about that.
Again, I am not an expert. I've just been following reputable sources for about 12 years.
Here's what I've learned:
1. The 9mm must expand for maximum effect against human adversaries, otherwise it zips right through.
2. The .45 ACP performs against people similar to expanded 9mm, whether it expands or not.
3. Round nose and FMJ have higher probability of over-penetration and ricochet, regardless of caliber.
4. ALWAYS carry hollow points for defense... it stands up better in court.
5. If I were forced to rely on FMJ for defense, I would choose .45 ACP hands down.
Do your own research. Make up your own mind.
Again, I am not an expert. I've just been following reputable sources for about 12 years.
Here's what I've learned:
1. The 9mm must expand for maximum effect against human adversaries, otherwise it zips right through.
2. The .45 ACP performs against people similar to expanded 9mm, whether it expands or not.
3. Round nose and FMJ have higher probability of over-penetration and ricochet, regardless of caliber.
4. ALWAYS carry hollow points for defense... it stands up better in court.
5. If I were forced to rely on FMJ for defense, I would choose .45 ACP hands down.
Do your own research. Make up your own mind.
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In the case of 9mm, the difference is between a 0.356" wide hole with FMJ and a 0.75" wide hole with the best JHPs. If that makes no difference, then we might as well use .22 LR instead (or .22 Magnum if penetration is lacking).
As for liability, overpenetration should always be presumed.
You were being perfectly clear, I think--it's your sources that were making sweeping overgeneralizations.
.45 ACP also needs to expand for the maximum effect it is capable of, otherwise it zips right through, too. Either caliber has way too much penetration for human targets in FMJ form.
Some modern 9mm JHPs expand to 0.75" pretty reliably--that's a big difference from 0.452" for supposedly similar performance. If you've been reading about this stuff for 12 years, then some of your information might be out of date. No offense intended, of course.
Unless they carry a media-induced stigma like Black Talons, anyway. I bet prosecutors could try to nail you either way with ad hoc arguments if they had a mind to.
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