After a shooting -- now what?

I've got a question but let me start out by saying I don't know the first thing about interrogations, self defense claims, or legal advice.

Would it be such a bad idea to just answer whatever questions the police have with complete truthfulness and without trying to tell them what you think they should know about the incident? If you are stressed out, like fiddletown says many people are after defending themselves, ask for a couple minutes to calm down. Then give a statement. And contact your lawyer as soon as possible.

I have never been in a self defense situation but from the interactions I have had with police it always seems to turn out better when you fully cooperate than when you don't. I know that if I was on a jury it would be easier for me to believe someone that did just that rather than someone that needed an entire 24 hours, with help from a lawyer, to "figure out" what just happened.

The problem with giving detailed answers to questions, or othewise talking too much to the police is not in what you say, perhaps. but in what the cops remember what you said, and write down in their little notebooks. They write their reports from their lttle notebooks, and then testify by "refreshing their memory" from the reports.

It is better say as little as possible, except to make sure the cops knew you were attacked, that you felt your life was in danger, that you want medical assistance in if you have been injured, and that you intent to dooperate fully, but you would like your attorney present before answering any more questions. If there is evidence on the scene that they might not find, or witnesses they don't know about, point that out to them too.

sgt gray-

If you have MI on your post, ask some of your 35Ms about interrogation. If you start talking, you're done. Always.

The police have one objective. To gather evidence of crimes. Exonerating people who are innocent is a far lesser priority. Your Miranda rights apply, and think of it as a promise, whether you have had them read to you or not. EVERYTHING you say can and WILL be used against you in a court of law. This is the only reason police question people in the first place. If you tell a cop you know why you were speeding, he's friendly because he has just sold you the ticket, greatly reducing the likelihood that you will show up to court and fight it. Of COURSE he's glad and friendly when you do that. This isn't a traffic ticket. The cop will not likely get irritated if you tell him you're not talking without a lawyer present. If he does, it's only because you have just refused to make his job easier. Does he come to your work and do your job for you? You have absolutely no obligation to do his for him.

Remember that in a jury, there is a strict set of rules regulation what you do or don't hear and why. The court will place the benefit of every doubt in favor of protecting the defendant's right against self-incrimination. You are thinking that you are itching to hear his side of the story, and wonder why he didn't talk to the police right away, but remember, this is going to be months after the fact, (if not longer,) and how long it took the defendant to talk to the police may not be mentioned at all. The prosecution has nothing to gain in pointing out that the defendant correctly asserted his rights. You won't hear anything from the defendant at all. The defendant only takes the stand on Law & Order hail Mary plays.

sgt gray said:

I don't know the first thing about interrogations, self defense claims, or legal advice.
Would it be such a bad idea to just answer whatever questions the police have with complete truthfulness and without trying to tell them what you think they should know about the incident? .... Then give a statement. And contact your lawyer as soon as possible.

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Yes, it is a bad idea... a VERY bad idea. If you have just gone through the trauma of shooting another human being, how do you KNOW what you are going to say? And how do you KNOW that the nice policeman will write down exactly what you are saying and exactly what you mean?
You don't, so the best thing is to say nothing - other then your name and who you are. Say nothing about the incident, what you did, what the assailant did, what you thought etc. Confer with your lawyer and start to prepare your defense immediately - it may not be needed but you can't take back what you have said or what the police wrote down what they thought you said.
Be polite, be courteous but keep your mouth shut.

sgt gray said:

Would it be such a bad idea to just answer whatever questions the police have with complete truthfulness and without trying to tell them what you think they should know about the incident? If you are stressed out, like fiddletown says many people are after defending themselves, ask for a couple minutes to calm down. Then give a statement.

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No, that's a very bad idea. It's not that "telling the truth" is a bad idea -- it's that you quite literally do not know what the truth is immediately after a life threatening event, and you quite literally no way of knowing what kind of tricks your adrenalin-soaked mind has played on you during the event. Nor is a few moments enough to recover those memories (see fiddletown's post above for recommendations from the Force Science Institute re recovery times prior to giving statements).

For example, in David Klinger's excellent book Into the Kill Zone: a cop's eye view of deadly force, an officer who was involved in a shooting writes the following:

"I thought that I fired four or five rounds, and it seemed like the guy stood there for a second or two, then fell to the ground. It turns out I was wrong on both counts. The investigation showed that I hit the guy with nine rounds, so I was way off there. My sense of time was also off, because when I saw the news video of the shooting the next day, it showed the guy going down as soon as I shot him. It was like he was standing there, then he went down real quick. That defied what I saw when I shot him, but the tape doesn't lie."

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It's tempting to think that's a quirky and personal response to sudden violence and the adrenal chemicals, but it's not. It's not a bit unusual.

Alexis Artwohl, PhD, who has made a lifetime study of these types of reactions, presented some of her findings at an AELE Lethal & Less Lethal Force Workshop in 2008. A synopsis is available online at http://www.aele.org/law/2008FPJUN/wb-19.pdf

In Artwohl's 2008 study, she found at over 50% of interviewees experienced memory loss for part of the incident, 46% experienced memory loss for part of their own behavior during the incident, and 21% "saw, heard, or experienced something that didn’t really happen" during their events. Those numbers are significant and shocking.

Your best bet is to follow fiddletown's advice in post #17:

fiddletown said:

Based on my training with Massad Ayoob and others, I'd suggest considering the following:

[1] In a high stress, self defense event, a person will usually experience one or more artifacts of the "fight-flight" response that will affect his perception of time, distance and the event in general. So immediately after the event is a lousy time for the person involved to start telling his story. He will frequently make mistakes. He will often get things wrong because of his altered perceptions.

[2] In addition, few people have been sufficiently inoculated to the type of stress involved to be able, immediately after the event, to maintain proper control of their emotions and to give a good and cogent account of the event.

[3] At the same time, while one has a right to remain silent, clamming up is what the bad guys do. Following a self defense incident, you'll want to act like one of the good guys. You also won't want the investigating officers to miss any evidence or possible witnesses.

[4] Mas' recommendations (also reflected in the Jackson/Walters book) are:

* Say something like, "That person, or those people, attacked me." You are thus immediately planting the notion that you were the victim.
* Say something like, "I will sign a complaint." That establishes that you viewed the conduct of the other party to be criminal. It also shows a spirit of cooperation.
* Point out possible evidence, especially evidence that may not be immediate apparent. So if the assailant's knife slide under a car, tell the investigating officer. If the assailant dropped his gun in the bushes as he ran away, mention that. You don't want any such evidence to be missed.
* Point out possible witnesses.
* Then say something like, "Officer, you know how serious this is. I'm not going to say anything more right now. You'll have my full cooperation in 24 hours, after I've talked with my lawyer."


You will want to point out evidence, because you don't want the police to miss evidence that may be helpful to you. You want to point out witnesses, because if the witnesses are going to disagree with your story, the police are likely to find them anyway. You don't want to give the appearance of hiding anything. Your lawyer will deal with conflicts.

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pax

fiddletown,

Thank you for your incredibly valuable contributions. No offense intended to others who have taken the time to contribute to this thread, but I will take the advice of a qualified lawyer over the advice of a law enforcement officer when it comes to handling the aftermath of a self-defense shooting.

Perhaps the most compelling piece of information shared in this thread is the notion that the truth can't help you if a police officer misremembers or misrecords the information on their report. What you tell the police can be used against you - it can't be used for you. That's why fiddletown and others have suggested pointing out witnesses and evidence, then SHUTTING YOUR TRAP - there's literally nothing else you can do for yourself at that time.

On the other hand, if you start rambling a mile a minute at the crime scene, and the officers are scribbling key words as fast as possible, their recollection of the bloody event may be skewed and incomplete eight hours later when they finally sit down to fill out their official report of what you said and did that fateful night. Through no intention of their own, those officers may have been put in a position of casting doubt on your claim of lawful self defense, and will be reviewing those same flawed notes when they're about to take the stand in the criminal or civil case against you.

The more words you say, the more chances the responding officers have to write down the wrong thing, misinterpret what you say, or mentally speculate about your motives and real actions, which can color their report later. Do yourself and the officers a favor and share only concise information about your fear for your life, the location of evidence and witnesses, and then shut your trap.

I’m new to this site but I think I have info here that all can use…
If, for some reason you cannot open this PDF file, Copy and Paste this (below info) as "Gill Sans MT Condensed" font... Font size #8... (Don’t adjust spacing as it should all fall into place if using font as stated) Print it out, fold at dotted line and it will be the size of a credit card. Carry with you at all times. Keep a copy in a word document so you can print it out any time the old one needs replacement. Pray you never have to use your weapon, but always be ready... Practice!




SELF-DEFENSE GUIDELINE CARD
If you have been involved in a shooting incident, the following steps should be taken but only
after you are completely sure there is no longer a threat.
1. Secure the weapon the assailant used. Check yourself for injuries. Make a complete check of the
scene, however, don’t tamper with evidence. If the person shot is no longer a threat, try to help him.
Do not talk to him or use abusive language. Don’t touch the assailant if he appears to be dead.
Don’t let anyone else handle any evidence.
2. Call the police as soon as possible. Tell them what has taken place, and your location. Ask for
emergency medical assistance. Don’t give too many details of the incident over the phone. Put your
weapon away, and keep it out of sight. Innocent people have been shot by the police because they
were holding weapons when the officers arrived. Try to spot them first and attract them in a
non-threatening manner. At first the police may treat you like a suspect, especially if you have a
weapon. Do as you are told. Do not question or argue with them.
3. Call your lawyer. Make no statements to the police or anyone else, until your attorney is present.
He should meet you at the scene if possible. Tell him exactly what happened and let him do the
talking for you. If you must meet the police by yourself, be sure not to make any statements.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explain to the police politely, but firmly, that you don’t want to talk until your attorney arrives.
Keep in mind that anything you say can and will be used against you.
4. When the paramedics arrive get medical treatment for shock for yourself and any other person
involved whether physically injured or not.
5. Stay away from the news media. Never talk or make any sort of statement to them. Let your
attorney make any statements for you. Remember, the news media has NO authority.
You do not have to talk to them.
6. Legal actions: You are justified in using lethal force only if you “feared for your life” or that of
another person. Don’t apologize for defending yourself. Avoid statements such as “I’m sorry I had to
shoot” “I regret the incident happened” Such statements are equated with feeling of guilt. You are
remorseful therefore your actions were inappropriate. Such statements can cost you latter on in a
court of law.
7. Stress: Persons involved in shooting incidents face a great amount of stress. Psychological problems
sometimes appear, and even physical ones such as sleeplessness, headaches, diarrhea and even heart
problems. These problems are common and affect even trained law enforcement officers. If you
encounter any of these problems, seek professional help.

First make sure you know YOUR STATE and in many cases local LAWS THAT APPLY. No two states are the same. Close, but hardly ever the same.

As my attorney, who was also a personal friend, told me, "If you feel the need to run at the mouth, say no more than:" " Name and address, it was self defense, I need medical care, (I have enough existing major chronic medical problems these days, so that would be a natural.) I wish to exercise my right to remain silent, I would like my/an attorney.

Or as he would politely state, "****". No one has ever been convicted of or for not talking to the Police. Do it politely. No need to be offensive, behave properly, follow instructions appropriately. Expect to be arrested.

My attorney reminded me what every LEO does in an officer involved shooting. Exactly what the professionals do/say "****". They will not say a word until their representative/lawyer is there. Our advantage we don't ever HAVE to talk to the police, follow your attorney's advice. Don't forget to choose a good and competent attorney too.

In Arizona now we have an additional advantage. In essence if we declare self Defense, the police/prosecutor have to PROVE otherwise or criminal intent. I do not have to "PROVE" self defense.

Most importantly, remember every LEO you will contact, is a educated, trained and in most cases, an experienced interrogator. Once you start talking, they own you.

AS to Ayoob and his desire for you to direct the investigation at the scene when officers arrive, I have not heard of any convictions related to "lost" evidence or witnesses. Don't doubt it has happened, but it is rare enough to say it ain't going to happen. Probability folks, not possibility. This is the exact type behavior that leads folks to start talking, and telling the investigators to much. Ask any criminal attorney.

Some folks think you look guilty because you don't talk. BULL ****! That is exactly what any experienced and trained law officer will do in an OIS.

Name, address is required, if you feel a need to meddle in something that you frankly know nothing about say, "It was self defense, I feel I may need medical attention, and POLITELY and respectfully state you wish to exercise your right ot silent, and your/an attorney.

It ain't rocket science. Don't complicate it. I remember in the Corps if captured, give name, rank, service number and date of birth. End conversation. Do the civilian equivalent.

As a close friend of mine who was a judge used to say, 90% of everyone in prison, talked their way in. Many even guilty, would not have been convicted if they had not done themselves in with their own statements. ****.

Go figure.

Fred

Thank you all for making that clear to me. I guess I will just **** in a self defense situation. Its just kind of sad that the truth won't set you free in those situations.

My attorney reminded me what every LEO does in an officer involved shooting. Exactly what the professionals do/say "****". They will not say a word until their representative/lawyer is there.

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Actually, that's not quite what the police do.

Check out this excellent article written for police supervisors: http://www.laaw.com/highstress.htm

Here's a relevant quote:

All you, as the supervisor, really need to know (from the involved officer) is:

1. Are there any other casualties, other than what are apparent?

2. Are there any other suspects in need of apprehension?

3. Is there any evidence that is likely to be lost or compromised by delay?

4. Are there any witnesses that we need to nail down right away?

... From the officer, insist upon only that information that is actually needed right away. Then, advise the officer that (s)he has the right to remain silent and the right to an attorney, and that (s)he is well advised to exercise his/her rights.

... Get the officer in contact with HIS/HER attorney as soon as possible.

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Interesting to me, because this advice rather exactly parallels Ayoob's 5-point checklist:

1. That person attacked me.
2. I will sign a complaint.
3. The evidence is there (point it out)
4. The witnesses are there (point them out)
5. You know how serious this is and you'll have my full cooperation after I've spoken with counsel (shut up and lawyer up).

Hmmm. Laying one over the other, we get something like,

Casualties -- me, anyone else injured, we're the victims
Suspects -- there he is, there they are, they went that-a-way (flip-flop the first two items on the list)
Evidence -- there it is
Witnesses -- there they are
Shut up & get a lawyer

Interesting!

pax

Yo Kathy.

Don't confuse them with the facts, especially this early in the morning.

It is not simple

In a self defense use of deadly force, the burden of proof falls on the prosecutor not you.

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The above is very much so in my home State of Florida.

When the Officers arrive at a suspected home entry, at 1AM, the dispatcher is concerned for the safety of her responding Officers way more than yours!

As it should be, ambushes and all.

In an incident in which I had cause to request patrol help, I thought I had an intruder in my house, response time 3 minutes. Incredible rapid response.

911 Dispatch made sure (as much as she could) my weapon was secured. I let them in, they checked the areas I could not vouch for, downstairs/garage, some one had pulled my screen door open, by force, loud crack noise, but no entry made in to house, dead bolted main door had not been disturbed.

The outside had been checked prior to entry, nothing.

Hand shake, all six! they left, bored or what? No idea why someone had opened the screen door, but some one did, I was reading in bed, wide awake.
The pulling open of the door unlocked it.

If I had shot an intruder? I would still have let them in. I still would have put my G19 in my dressing gown pocket. When the Deputy's arrived I would have informed them of the location and condition of the pistol first. I would have informed the Dispatch as to the fact I had fired to protect my Wife and I, and I had not gone close to the intruder.

The Police are now in charge.

The point is that the defendant can not simply sit back, remaining silent, and force the prosecutor to disprove self defense.

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Actually he can. Until the State makes a charge, there is nothing to defend. Once the charges are drawn, that is when the guy you hired, hopefully an experienced and motivated attorney in these matters, will handle the defense.

Your whole goal, and hopefully your attorney's too,is that the prosecuting body drops charges for any reason, there is No Bill from the grand jury, or Not guilty if it goes to court.

Those are the desired results. in that order too.

No one you will meet, is your friend. Your attorney is hired help, the police are looking for criminals and arrests, the prosecutor is looking for a batting average. All you can hope for is that everyone involved is an honest, moral, and professional person, doing their best for an honest and just outcome.

None of this is personal, it is all just business, and once you killed That bad guy you became their business. Even your attorney, never forget in the end it is basically a business relationship.

You and hopefully your family are the ONLY PEOPLE on your side. You may become very surprised by how some of your own family and friends may behave toward you too. This is not a little or flippant thing. Win or lose there will be major consequences.

Go figure.

Fred