Ok....Why Do People Carry Without One In the Chamber..?

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Personally I carry with one in the pipe.
There is a guy I know that doesn't carry chambered anymore. He got startled by someone & drew & was a hairs breadth from firing before he realized the guy was not a threat.
I believe that I am responsible to figure out what is best for me & mine. I learned a long time ago it's best not to answer questions that didn't get asked by others.
 
My, my - 226 posts without an implosion; that's very good for this topic.

Grossly summarizing the +1 point of view, people who carry -1 must fear their weapon or not be adequately trained.

To expand on that point of view, what fear drives people who carry +1 to that mode of carry and to such levels of training?
 
It should always make one feel uneasy to carry with a loaded chamber. IT IS A GUN. It is a deadly device made for a deadly purpose. By definition, it is a dangerous item if not properly handled. Handle it properly, then.
 
A sense of uneasiness is the norm, and should be? No on both accounts.
 
Q:
To expand on that point of view, what fear drives people who carry +1 to that mode of carry and to such levels of training?
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A:
Your weapon is supposed to be ready to handle those LIFE AND DEATH situations you can't forsee. I don't see why I would handicap myself by becoming LESS prepared. Carry with a round in the chamber. If you don't like the mechanism of your carry gun to allow that than choose another weapon. If your afraid the trigger might get pulled they wear a good fitting kydex or molded holster and get a weapon wtih a manual safety. If your worried about it falling out then wear a holster with some type of retention. Solve the problem, don't create another by placing yourself at a disadvantage when seconds count.
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After 10 pages, it's harder to come up with an original post, so I'll take the option of just running with Jon's answer, FWIW.
 
To expand on that point of view, what fear drives people who carry +1 to that mode of carry and to such levels of training?
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It is not fear, we simply understand the reality of violent attacks. If your handgun is not capable of being immediately fired with one hand it is useless. Don't even bother carrying it.
 
It is not fear, we simply understand the reality of violent attacks. If your handgun is not capable of being immediately fired with one hand it is useless. Don't even bother carrying it.
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I fear the consequences of a violent attack if I am unprepared.

If it is not fear that prompts preparedness, what does?

Does anyone carry because they relish the prospect of a violent attack?
 
What strikes me as odd is that the "empty chamber" folks sometimes make a post referencing a situation they had that goes like: "things were starting to get serious, so I chambered a round......"

But they never say how they "train" to do that. Now, in the midst of a stressful, dynamic situation, they are holding a gun that is likely safety off, with a chambered round. In other words, they are holding agun in a state of readiness that they are not accustomed to and do not train for!

Sounds like a good idea to me! :rolleyes:
 
IMO they carry without a round in the chamber because they know they have not put in the time and effort they should have before starting to carry.
Mine is a 1911 "cocked and locked and ready to rock doc"
 
OK, it has been said a bunch of times before by most of the responders that one may not have time to chamber a round in a given situation. They want their weapon to be ready. I get that. That being said how long does it take to chamber a round? How long does it take to draw a weapon? What if someone said that they carried, as in carried in their hand, a semi automatic pistol and said others were foolish to use a holster as they may not have time to successfully draw their weapon? Could that person carry an empty chambered pistol and chamber a round and be ready before someone drawing a "cocked and locked" firearm from a holster?
What I am getting at is that there are many compromises we make every day involving safety and convenience.
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First, even if you didn't have it holstered and you were carrying it in one hand unchambered, it still requires two hands to chamber the round...


Second, I deffer to Massad Ayoob again. Since it seems that some people haven't read what he has to say on just such a topic:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_167_28/ai_110457294/?tag=content;col1

A man not confident enough in his ability to carry a chamber-loaded semiautomatic pistol is better served with a revolver. Operating the slide before firing is a complex psycho-motor skill of the kind that does not survive stress well, and it's normally a two-handed operation. The history of gunfighting shows us at least half the time, we will fire our handgun one-handed when attacked by surprise. The gun must be in a condition that allows one-handed operation.
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Please, real discussion on the subject is fine, but when you have to use far out and unrealistic circumstances to try to justify your point then you've stopped debating. Example:

What if someone said that they carried, as in carried in their hand, a semi automatic pistol and said others were foolish to use a holster as they may not have time to successfully draw their weapon?
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Pure jabberwocky. :rolleyes: Laws? Reality of social situations? They're missing from this sentence.


What I am getting at is that there are many compromises we make every day involving safety and convenience.
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Agreed, there are some compromises that we have to make. But except for rare does-not-apply-to-99%-of-people circumstance, carrying unchambered isn't one of them.
 
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I know alot of people who dont carry +1. most of which are people who have just got their CHL and dont trust thenselves to cary a loaded firearm. Thye are still scared of it. I carry 100% of the time and its locked and loaded. the nonly time I take out that +1 is at home where my 3 kids are. I still carry at home but I switch from my Colt commander to a little double action 380.
 
I disagree. I did not say to be afraid, but a healthy respect is appropriate. I have the same respectful unease around table saws, helicopter blades, and high places.
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and large women :p
 
I disagree. I did not say to be afraid, but a healthy respect is appropriate. I have the same respectful unease around table saws, helicopter blades, and high places.
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Healthy respect is a requirement of conceal carry (and firearms in general, but especially CCW). Totally agree with you on that.

As nutnfancy says in his video The Concealed Carry Protocol, you have to change your mentality. Your normal day to day actions change. How you deal with people changes.


Another great video I forgot to post earlier was nutnfancy's Obligation of Carry. Very good, very insightful. Good no BS look at carry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gIHDHZf1TA
 
Not a dig on people that carry on an empty chamber at all BUT being armed is a progression, first there is the recognition it is necessary to be armed, then they actually decide to be armed, then they get the permit, etc.

Most the time people that carry without one in the chamber aren't completely comfortable carrying a firearm for self defense and typically don't have a lot of training.

As they get training and become more comfortable carrying a firearm they usually realize the very real problems carrying on an empty chamber creates.

The reality is at least half self defense shootings are one handed and in those situations most people lack the skill to chamber their firearm. That doesn't even take into consideration that at the range most self defense shootings occur even if you are physically able to chamber a round there is a good chance there wont be time.

Also weapon manipulations under stress are more likely to introduce a failure (not fully retracting / releasing the slide, etc).

The "off the shoe" or "off the pocket" trick work when you aren't in condition red or black, once fine motor skills and upper brain function go away so does most people's ability to utilize such tricks (some just forget completely).

There was a local man that was unable to defend himself because he carried on an empty chamber, he got lucky and the police arrived but he now carries with one in the chamber.
 
It doesn't worry me about people who carry one in the chamber. I carry 1 in the chamber. I don't carry cocked and locked however. IF, very rarely, I carry a 1911A1, I carry condition 2. If others don't like that, oh well. Most times, I prefer to carry a better weapon such as a P220 or similar which decocks to double action. Then I have the best of all worlds.

But what bothers me are the brother/sister gun owners who actually believe that their gun is going to possibly save their lives. Some of these people are dangerous and are going to get themselves or someone else killed. No gun has ever saved a person's life. Just like no gun has ever killed a person. The gun is simply a tool. Fortunately for me, I have a number of tools to help ME protect myself. The greatest tool is between my ears. Being aware of situations as well as potential situations. Not every situation requires pulling out a gun and shooting. Again, there's some really dangerous people around who will do exactly that. I won't get into all the scenarios that I've seen, read, heard, etc... where a gun was involved; where the gun owner was probably causing more potential harm than good. But that's another story. What's important, is that people realize a gun is just a tool. And it's the person who will protect themselves or others. Not the gun. And if you don't know how to protect yourself without a gun; which you've probably lived most of your life without a carry weapon; then you better make sure you really know what, when, and how you're doing with a gun. A gun is an excellent tool. It can definitely help a person protect themselves and others. But there are a lot of people who think that Die-Hard and lethal weapon movies are real life. They aren't real life. And people need to know when to hold them, and when to fold them.
 
I fear the consequences of a violent attack if I am unprepared.

If it is not fear that prompts preparedness, what does?

Does anyone carry because they relish the prospect of a violent attack?
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I prepare mostly because I like being prepared.

I like being able to fix a coworker's glasses if they break. Not because I fear the consequences of a coworker not being able to see or because I relish the prospect of his glasses breaking.

When cars were simpler I used to carry a small stash of commonly needed spare parts (fuel filter, headlight, etc.) under the back seat because I liked the idea of being able to fix most common problems without having to get help. I didn't do it out of a fear of being stranded because at the time I wasn't driving anywhere that breaking down would have been the least problem. I didn't do it because I relished the idea of working on my car by the side of the road. I did it because I like the feeling of being self-reliant. I did it because it seemed like a waste to have a useful skill and then not be able to exercise it because I didn't have the tools or parts available when I needed them.

I like the idea that I can do CPR and operate an AED if it is required, not because I fear or relish the prospect of one of my coworkers keeling over.

I carry a flashlight (not just as a gun light--I carried a flashlight for some time before I ever carried a gun) not because I fear the dark or because I relish the prospect of a power failure but because it's often useful to have a source of light handy.

I prepare (to the extent that I feel it's practical to prepare) because preparation makes sense to me.
 
I prepare (to the extent that I feel it's practical to prepare) because preparation makes sense to me.
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Is preparation simply based on potential utility? If so, what factors go into analyzing the degree of preparation versus potential utility?
 
My preparation is based on potential utility, practicality and my knowledge base and to some extent, at least in some cases, on the possible adverse effects of not preparing.

The factors that go into analyzing the degree of preparation vs. potential utility are practicality, my knowledge base and to some extent, at least in some cases, on the possible adverse effects of not preparing.

I'm using the term "knowledge base" to mean the realm of what I know, what I consider to be interesting, skills I have developed, etc. The sum of what I have learned, retained and practice in my life.

Examples of how the factors that go into analyzing the degree of preparation vs. potential utility balance each other.

I might be willing to bend the rules of what I consider to be practical a little if there is a possible adverse effect of not preparing that I consider to be truly unthinkable.

I might not prepare for something even if it's within my knowledge base and has potential utility if I can't think of a way to prepare that's practical. (See not carrying an AED in my previous post.)

I might prepare in a way that offers little practical utility if the preparation falls within my knowledge base and it doesn't "cost" me much. I carry a couple of small items that I am fairly unlikely to use in my lifetime because they are very easy to carry and because they relate to a rather unusual skill I have and to a field that interests me.

To bring this all back around to the topic at hand:

I carry a gun because there is potential utility, because the use of firearms falls within my knowledge base and it doesn't cost me much. I also carry because of possible adverse effects of not carrying although that is much less of a consideration than the other factors already listed due to a rational assessment of the very small likelihood of those possible adverse effects.

I carry a gun that offers a good balance of utility and practicality (based on my knowledge base) and I take reasonable safety precautions in my carry method based on manufacturer recommendations, expert recommendations and the information from my knowledge base.

I carry it with a round in the chamber and in a holster that covers the trigger because the manufacturer indicates that is safe, because expert consensus is that such a carry method is safe for that handgun and expedient for use and because there is nothing in my knowledge base that proves either the expert consensus or the manufacturer wrong.
 
I carry a gun because there is potential utility, because the use of firearms falls within my knowledge base and it doesn't cost me much. I also carry because of possible adverse effects of not carrying although that is much less of a consideration than the other factors already listed due to a rational assessment of the very small likelihood of those possible adverse effects.
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An excellent response, and quite different from the extreme-scenario rationales that many give. You recognize risk, but assess the risk rationally in relation to other factors that motivate carry.
 
xXxplosive said:
As I mentioned....we are interested in the reasoning, opinions and concerns why some choose not to carry with one in......

It's much easier to discuss this issue here and it is much better to ask whatever questions you may have or express your concerns so we can all better understand what the hesitation may be.....

Remember as I stated, both my encounters were under 10' and completely unannounced... I would have had no time to rack a slide with an assailant at 5' in front of me on one of the occassions...

So.....whose next ? Tell us your feelings about carrying + or - one.
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Im just curious how you got your CCW living in NJ. Only person I know who has a non restricted CCW is my uncle who is a retired police captain.

If I were ever able to carry my handgun legally, honestly I have no idea how I would carry it. The chances of that happening are next to nothing.
 
They are not properly trained or confident in their skills. This is very dangerous. If you don't posess the skills to carry safely with one in the chamber.. you should get proper training or practice at home until you are proficient and understand how to scan, access, draw, aquire, deliver force if needed, scan, holster. Run drills at home with an UNLOADED gun (but cocked and locked) and carry in your house until you feel comfortable going out in the real world.

Be smart and be safe.
 
xXxplosive said:
Who said it was in New Jersey........You maybe.....?
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Was just an assumption based off of your location stated under your user name. No reason to get hostile. All you mentioned were these two situations with no details, was just curious.
 
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