Reason: “Gun nuts” battle “Constitution nuts”

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We gotta win this, but I can't read any articles on this and not <be irate> at the NRA.
 
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No matter how we win this one, we need to win it above all else.



“the differing approaches [of] 'gun nuts,' whose sole interest is a protection of Second Amendment rights, [and] 'constitution nuts,' who think the case offers a chance to reassert the importance of the privileges-or-immunities argument.”



I understand where they are coming from, but for me, the 2nd Amendment is currently the most important factor in this decision.
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Huh, I am a constitution nut (have carried a copy since grade school) and always thought that the 2A was a very important part of the Constitution/BOR. I guess I wasn't raised a gun nut, but would not be embarrassed to be called that today. I like all of our rights.

Very good article linked there though. Have to say that I would lean towards the P or I side and strike down the Slaughterhouse case precedent. That's not just big for 2A but big for everything. The words of the 14th amendment have that same sweeping feeling as those penned by the Founding Fathers and really seem to deserve the same place.
 
I doubt SlaughterHouse will be over ruled but it would be nice it that happened with this case. Our majority in Heller was 5 to 4. Ginsburg who was in the minorty talked in a speech about cases that are revisted or over turned by later courts. As way of example she mentioned the Heller case. My feeling is that if McDonald results in overturning SlaughterHouse - that it will be such a huge case - not only incorporating the 2nd but also establishing a general incorporation of all enumerated rights under P & I that the court would never out and out overturn Heller since they would have to take on McDonald also and essentially over turn two landmark cases.
 
strike down the Slaughterhouse case precedent

I highly doubt that would ever happen. It would be nothing short of revolutionary and create waaay too many ripples. First order of business for the government official, elected or otherwise: MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO!
 
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I read the Washington Post article on this a few days ago, as well as the link in the OP's post. McDonald is a must win for all Americans who believe in RKBA and our Constitution. Slaughterhouse being overturned would be the icing on the cake.
 
No matter how we win this one, we need to win it above all else.



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“the differing approaches [of] 'gun nuts,' whose sole interest is a protection of Second Amendment rights, [and] 'constitution nuts,' who think the case offers a chance to reassert the importance of the privileges-or-immunities argument.”


I understand where they are coming from, but for me, the 2nd Amendment is currently the most important factor in this decision.
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I think we are going to have to win just enough of each. Heller was decided by the conservative wing of SCOTUS, not the liberals who stretched due process into its current form. I don't think Thomas has ever decided an incorporation case, but I could easily see him, or Scalia for that matter, saying that "substantive due process" is a load of huey not mentioned in the Constitution, and draft an opinion incorporating through P and I. In that situation we would probably need, 4 + 1, or 3 + 2, for a majority.
 
Doherty is an interesting writer--no doubt you've all read the book on Heller, which was an eye-opener for me, especially regarding the NRA. It's worth noting that having Mr. Clement arguing for preserving limitations on the 2nd Amendment didn't get us any votes from the liberal justices, so I see no advantage in appeasement. Might as well go for Gura's version--it doesn't annul substantive due process. Or am I missing something?
 
I too get mad at the NRA when I read about this case. As I have said before, I truely belive they are doing what they think is best (I dont think they are throwing a monkey wrench in the works). HOWEVER, they have a serious case of the "Play-it-safe" mentality that if listened to back in Heller would have resulted in an at best watered down victory or at worst, would have stolen defeat from the jaws of victory. I do appreciate their nervousness about putting us/this case in a position to lose, but at some point you do have to go for the win......NOW IS THE TIME TO GO FOR THE WIN. :cuss:

I am starting to believe that the NRA thinks the way it is right now is acceptable and are fine with the status quo. I am not. I believe the current system will find us being relegated to ever more antiquated arms that will NOT include more modern technologies as they progress. In 100 years our AKs & ARs will be the battlefield equivelent of a muzzleloader.

I am also pleased about the possible other outcomes from this case. It seems OBVIOUS to most Americans that the Bill of Rights applys to them, but evidently we are in need of a ruling to show a precident, and this might be it.
 
You gotta remember that if our society allows all the modern technologies (like the Constitution was intended), then there really would be no need for an NRA. So I figure part of their reluctance is 'self-preservation'.

In addition, they are a political group, and like any successful political group, need large numbers of support. In politics, the way to do that is to appear 'rational' (basically to play to the middle). Unfortunately, playing to the middle ensures that they will always be subtily supporting some 2A restrictions.

If you believe shall not be infringed is not the same as "reasonable restrictions", then the NRA will never really stand for the exact same things you do.
 
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Hmmm. Again, I don't see how arguing for P&I would negate substantive due process. Can't Gura & even the NRA (however pusillanimous they are) do both without risking the failure of the more straightforward due process argument? I'll await the arrival of an attorney. :)
 
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Need For An NRA

. . . there really would be no need for an NRA.

By which I presume you mean "need for an NRA-ILA."

The original purpose of the NRA was to establish marksmanship training for the common man.

@ NRA.org

Dismayed by the lack of marksmanship shown by their troops, Union veterans Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate formed the National Rifle Association in 1871. The primary goal of the association would be to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis," according to a magazine editorial written by Church.

After being granted a charter by the state of New York on November 17, 1871, the NRA was founded. Civil War Gen. Ambrose Burnside, who was also the former governor of Rhode Island and a U.S. Senator, became the fledgling NRA's first president.

An important facet of the NRA's creation was the development of a practice ground. In 1872, with financial help from New York state, a site on Long Island, the Creed Farm, was purchased for the purpose of building a rifle range. Named Creedmoor, the range opened a year later, and it was there that the first annual matches were held.


Political activism came later, and resulted in the establishment of the NRA-ILA.

You could say that observation is "pedantic" and that the organizations are really just faces of the same body. Not so.

If all the gun control laws were abolished, if every man, woman, and child in the country were allowed to "keep and bear" as they saw fit, the need for the NRA would not disappear.

Quite the contrary. If you add 50 million new shooters to the rolls, you need to train 50 million new shooters in gun safety and marksmanship. And, that being the original mission of the NRA, their membership would expand, and their job would be bigger, and the necessity of having them would be greater than ever.


Probably more in line with what you may actually have meant, a "total win" on gun rights would also not make the NRA-ILA irrelevant.

There will always be some clown who believes his agenda depends on disarming America, and the NRA-ILA and organizations like it will charged with watching the legislative sneak-thieves who will fence us in and close the gate the moment they believe we're not looking.

We have to win. Liberty depends on it.

And win, we will.

But it will never be "over."

 
I don't see how arguing for P&I would negate substantive due process.
A lot of people seem to believe that the P&I was intended to incorporate the USBOR, and that substantive due process is nonsense that was invented to get around Slaughterhouse ... if the SCOTUS is going to say that the P&I incorporates the USBOR, then I don't see how they have any excuse to continue with their lie about substantive due process ... if they are going to say that both due process and P&I were intended to incorporate the USBOR, then I think a lot of people may see the SCOTUS as having even less credibility than they do now.
 
I presume you mean "need for an NRA-ILA."
You are correct there.



But I did not mean that a total legal win would make them irrelevant, I meant that if "our society allowed all the modern technologies" they would be unnecessary.

Just as our society has grown to reject slavery and there is no longer a need for an Underground Railroad, likewise, when everyone is so educated that the vast majority can see the folly of gun-control, then political parties advocating gun freedoms will be as unnecessary as abolutionists are now.
 
Its the difference between a home run or a double. The NRA thinks that the can hit a double then try to play out the inning. Gura wants to hit a homer and get it overwith.
 
Hugh and Ohio--

I'm not making myself clear, or I'm especially dimwitted, or as usual a bit of both.:) My question is about the effect of the two concepts on arguing the case. To use Ohio's analogy, why not just swing for the fences, secure in the knowledge that even if I don't hit the homer (incorporation of Heller via resuscitating P&I), the double (incorporation of Heller via "substantive due process") is pretty much a slam dunk.

In other words, I see the difference between P&I and SDP (and Hugh I appreciate your remark about the attendant hypocrisy regarding Slaughterhouse); I just don't see how arguing for both would put the 2nd Amendment outcome in any further doubt, even if P&I didn't work out. The article in Reason, if not read carefully, makes it sound as though SDP and P&I are somehow mutually exclusive--I don't see that they are at all.

Hope this makes sense.

Thanks, Jeff
 
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I just don't see how arguing for both would put the 2nd Amendment outcome in any further doubt, even if P&I didn't work out. The article in Reason, if not read carefully, makes it sound as though SDP and P&I are somehow mutually exclusive

Jeff, I'm sure you understand most of this, but let me start at the beginning for the benefit of others.

The 14th Amendment , Section 1:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

As you can see, Section 1 has three prongs: 1) privileges or immunities of citizens, 2) due process, and 3) equal protection.

Privileges and immunities was essentially written out of the constitution by Slaughterhouse, which restricted P and I to only those Privileges which related solely to United States citizenship- The right to protection on high seas, the right to have a passport and go to a consulate for protection, and a other rights which pretty much have no bearing on state rights.

Nonetheless SCOTUS still applied the other two clauses to the states: i.e. pursuant to the due process clause, you must be convicted by a jury of your peers, the state must provide you with a lawyer if you cannot afford one, the police must tell you about your rights before questioning. Due process gradually expanded beyond rights in court to protect “fundamental” rights anywhere to make up for the elimination of privileges and immunities, i.e. the rights to contraceptives, abortion and gay sex – even though these rights are not directly mentioned anywhere in the constitution.

Many conservative scholars and the conservative wing of the Supreme Court, think that this extension of due process into areas not mentioned in the Constitution is ridiculous. The liberal wing of the Supreme Court, who think that the Constitution is a living breathing puppy to be trained as they see fit, love this extended framework of substantive due process since it allows them to restrict states rights whenever they deem it appropriate, despite what the constitution says.

The question is whether the Conservatives, upon whom we will need to rely, will adopt the liberal substantive due process framework to incorporate the RTKBA, a non judicial right, or if they will go back and overrule Slaughterhouse, or (distant third) if they will say that the RTKBA is a distinctly federal right that is incorporated against the states but not overrule slaughterhouse.

Personally, I think the last possibility is DOA, since it would need an expansive opinion at least tacitly approving Slaughterhouse. SCOTUS may avoid Slaughterhouse based on stare decisis, but nobody thinks it is conceptually valid and SCOTUS is not going to actively defend it. The choice for the conservatives is between: the substantive due process structure which is familiar and does not upset the applecart but is not rooted in the language of the Constitution, and is intellectually dishonest in this context, and Privileges and Immunities which is honest, but completely re-writes constitutional law.

Most commentators think that due process is “safer” somehow, but I disagree, we need both to achieve a plurality. I do not think Thomas will use an attenuated due process rationale to incorporate the RTKBA. Scalia, will not like doing so, but he might do so on stare decisis grounds. Essentially, if we are relying upon the Heller Majority to pull this out, we probably need both due process and P or I, to win 4-1-4 or 3-2-4.

Facially, there is nothing inconsistent with incorporating through both P or I and Due Process, since they are both prongs of the 14th amendment. The inconsistency is with tactical decisions balancing the two pathways at oral arguments: How much time do you spend addressing each issue? How do you answer which is better, easy or honest? If Kennedy, who is probably the crucial 5th vote, leans one way how does one change ones argument? If Breyer or RBG indicate that they are leaning towards incorporation through one method or the other, how does that change the argument?

The real problem now is that there are two guys, marching to different drummers, who do not trust each other arguing for the same thing, independently making the aforementioned decisions which will invariably expose differences in opinions which can be exploited by the enemies of the RTKBA. Some might also say that a certain advocate has to win via one path or the other, to justify his involvement in the case. You can bet that if any justice is against the RTKBA they will try and drive a wedge between Gura and Clement by bringing up any difference between their arguments. This would not happen with one advocate.
 
Sabastian, thanks for the clear and concise review giving the crux of McDonald. Gives me a better understanding.
 
The whole thing of the NRA getting into this after the fact just reeks of "me 2, look at me".

I'm reading a some lawyer/scotus watcher blogs now, and the common opinion is 1)slaughterhouse was a tragic ruling, but it won't be overturned on P&I, essentially, because its been in place to long and its overturn would have wide ranging effects(victory if you believe in liberty!)

2) As a due process arguement, it is a slam dunk, which is why Gura devotes so little argument to it.

The real win is by P&I.

it makes me wheep for our nation if with virtual 100% concurrence that slaughterhouse was a tragedy, it won't be made right "just because".
 
I don't think we can simply say that everyone know Slaughterhouse was a tragedy and anyone who believes in the US Constitution and the RKBA knows that the 14th was intended to incorporate the USBOR ... personally, I tend to think that Slaughterhouse was closer to the truth than our modern rulings are, and I have come to doubt very seriously that the 39th Congress would have passed an amendment which they understood to make the USBOR binding upon the States.
 
Sebastian, thanks very much for taking the time to proffer such a detailed and informative answer to my question. What you make clear is precisely what I wanted to understand: the effect of P&I vs. SDP on arguing the case, and you give complete context and a couple of other vectors and options into the bargain.

Also, your post throws into stark relief the difference between this year's battle and Heller. Like almost everyone else I've talked to, I was under the impression that McDonald was going to be relatively easy. But if I understand you correctly, there are a couple of ways SCOTUS could split along different legal fissures than those underlying Heller. Your remark about liberal judges actually trying to affect the outcome of the case is fascinating, considering that this time there's a different liberal justice, who may be more of an activist than her predecessor. After reading what you have to say, I see that it's not just a matter of counting "liberal votes" and "conservative votes." Thanks for giving us a sense of the subtleties!

Jeff
 
Sebastian, I think we generally agree. However, consider this for a moment.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.
This section explicitly creates a national citizenship that is superior to the then State citizenship. I can say this, because a US citizen who resides in a US territory is not a State citizen at all. Therefore, US Citizenship, and the rights of that citizenship are superior to the rights of a State citizen. This is the thrust of the next clause:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;
The next clause is where I would direct your attention:
nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Notice the change in wording? It no longer refers to a citizen, but to a person.

This has significance in legal interpretation. No State shall deprive any person (citizen or alien) ... without due process. Nor shall any State deny to any person (citizen or alien) ... equal protection of the law.

The Courts have already used these clauses to protect the rights of non-citizens, that is, aliens. That was the intention and purpose of these clauses.

So Substantive Due Process and Equal Protection will still have its uses. But it will be to protect non-citizens from abuse. Whereas, the main clause will protect citizens from abuse.

This, to me, is the proper reading of the 14th amendment.

Now, having said this, there are still two major areas of that will prevent the SCOTUS from ruling on the P or I issue.

First, much of the last 50 years of 4th amendment decision have been based upon something less than strict scrutiny. With P or I incorporation, those decisions may fall.

Second, because Slaughter-House was an economic rights decision, the Court will be afraid of resurrecting Lochner. That, by itself may prevent the Court from ruling in favor of P or I incorporation.
 
Al I understand your point about citizens and non-citizens, but I think it is much ado about nothing since the federal government has essentially preempted the entire field of immigration. We are only dealing with state regulation, and state alienage classifications are a suspect class subject to strict scrutiny. Unless the federal government adopts something like the I-9 requirement and specifically allows states to pass laws restricting designated alien’s rights to firearms, or anything else for that matter, the States will not be able to regulate it. The NRA actually just defeated the State of Washington on these grounds.

While there may be a 1% chance of 5 justices voting for P and I, I think there is absolutely no chance the court will completely strike down 50+ years of due process jurisprudence, or reinstate Lochner.
 
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