Inexpensive

SU 16

Man! That's the first time I've seen that! Add an Aimpoint, and if it's reliable, you've got quite a little carbine!

What about...

I don't about being California Legal, but what about EAA Saiga's?

A brand new semi-auto built on an AK mechanism? As sturdy, and as accurate as I am over iron-sights. A handy 16" barrel and chambered in inexpensive 7.62 X 39? And all for $210? Seems like a good deal to me.

Saiga

They come in .223 & .308 too, under $250-$300.

MSRP on the California legal FAL IS AROUND $1700
For that you can get a loaded M1A, a case of ammo and some 10 rd mags
Drop to the basic M1A and you can get a dozen mags and a couple cases of ammo...
Anyway its way out of the price range you set
AIM Surplus has Albanian SKS's $125 delivered to CA. Add DROS and a dealers fee and $100 for 1000 rds of ammo and you're well set up for shooting for under $300
Then you can use the rest of that $700 to buy a riot gun and ammo That way you're prepared to defend yourself OR take it to the bad guys...

What purpose did you say you're looking for a rifle? Your questions in prior threads that you want a small, concealable rifle with lots of firepower: "effective," as you put it.

There are other web sites that come to mind that are more oriented to offensive sniper-type purposes (which sounds more like what you have in mind) as opposed to personal defense and sport shooting. Have you tried them for advice?

Most of your line of questioning deals with guns that you probably cannot legally purchase in California...and you are well advised to comply with firearm-related laws.

The Su-16 might fit your bill. I haven't seen one in person, but someone started a thread on it about a month ago, so do a search. In a roundabout way, it is California-Legal but you have to talk to your dealer to arrange an order (he or she cannot get it straight from the manufacturer). If you don't want the CMP Garand, I doubt you'd be interested in the old milsurp FN-49, SVT-40, AG-42b or stuff like that, but I'll throw it out anyway.

I'm not a big fan of the Ruger Mini-14 but you might want to look into that as well. If I had a Mini-14, I'd change the barrel out for a heavy barrel to improve the shootability (stock barrel heats up too fast and point of impact sinks too much). While I love rifles, remember that a shotgun is widely considered the ideal weapon for home defence. They are pretty easy to use, also.

For home defense you need a short barrel for maneuverability, and possibly a collapsible stock. The Keltec, if CA legal, will fit the bill. A riot shot gun will fit it better. If you need some distance, keep a slug in the tube with the buckshot.

I would not recommend a .223, 7.62x39, or .308 for home defense inside the house. The 9mm Keltec SU16 should be OK. Again, the shotgun is better inside the house.

Search the site here because someone did a fantastic write up on the SU-16.

I'm with Coot...nothing overtly wrong with vsse's questions but the combination of them has the hairs on the back of my neck raised. Most of the questions show an apparent lack of knowledge of rifles and firearms in general (nothing wrong with that) and are asking about concealability and firepower (again, nothing overtly wrong with that).

Sorry vsse, not trying to be unfriendly, just that a new guy with lots of tersely worded questions when added up make me look a little cockeyed at 'em. Hope you come out soon and ask a long-winded question so people can answer you fully.

<putting tinfoil hat back in drawer>

I'm not sure if VSSE has really said anythingwrong in this thread, but the combo of everything is a little questionable. VSSE, please slow down and concentrate on CA legal firearms...also, remember that we will not tolerate the discussion of pre-meditated felonies here.

iamkris: I didn't mean any disrespect by the emotion on the shotgun. I have removed it.

As far as #4 buck goes. I have had good results with it patterning in my shotgun and the increased number of pellets .vs 00 Buck is a good mix for me.

Stonewall -- heck I wasn't even referring to your post...I had just listened to Marvin Gaye ("I second that emotion") and that's what I typed.

No harm intended, none perceived (sorry to have made you think so).

If i were just looking for something in a Semi-Auto, for Home defense, i would be looking for a good shotgun.

AK-47 .... Battle proven design. Cheap to buy and cheap to shoot.

vsse,

As general advice, why don't you just go to firearms division under State of California - Attorney General and read what you can about what constitutes an assault weapon. (or even call ATF - FROM a pay phone) Anything on the banned list or meets the assault weapon description means you can't have it. Which means you can't buy it, give it away, transfer it to another person or have one imported into the state of Ca. Even if you bought it ouside of Ca. and then brought it here, you run the off-hand chance of having someone take note of it and run the serial number through the data base. Once caught, it's a federal felony and you would lose possession af all your firearms. Not worth the risk. That is - IF you were thinking about something along the designs of an assault weapon type. BTW, this has happened to a quite a few individuals since I used to run DROS and had a few talks with ATF at one time.

I would not recommend a .223, 7.62x39, or .308 for home defense inside the house. The 9mm Keltec SU16 should be OK. Again, the shotgun is better inside the house.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't recommend AK7.92 or .308 but I would recommend the .223 only in hollow points, because they have more stopping power then the 9mm and (I think) less penetration through walls.

How much for a M-16 in CA?

www.keepandbeararms.com has a case you will be interested in. Supreme court will decide if it will hear the case by the Dec. 5th.

SKS would be my choice for inexpensive home defense if I was hell bent on semi-auto for home defense. However in my house the SKS sleeps with a trigger lock on it and the Remington 870 12g stays loaded and waiting.

An M-16 is priceless in California. You can no longer legally purchase one since 1/1/2000

So if you have a m-16, you can't even sell it?

PRK native here. Rifle choices are limited.

Mattd, if one has an AR-15 or clone, it can only be sod out-of-state. True M-16's, being full-auto and therefore Class III, are straight-up ILLEGAL TO POSESS IN THIS STATE. The PRK banned all machine guns a few years ago.

Want a pistol grip? Sorry. No pistol grip on a rifle UNLESS IT HAS A FIXED MAGAZINE.

That'd be things like the AR-clones that have no magazine well, and only hold 10 rounds, or that butchered FAL monstrosity.

Switch-mag guns you CAN buy are as follows. I THINK I have 'em all.
Mini-14's, and -30's.

Ruger PC carbines.

M-14-alikes, like the Springfield M1-A.

Remington 7400's.

Browning BAR's.

Winchester M-100's.

Garands, and M-1 carbines.

Remington M-8 or M-81 Woodsmasters.

H&K SL-6's and -7's.

That Kel-Tec rifle shown above oughta qualify. It was made with the PRK market in mind, and for that reason lacks a pistol grip.

SKS's are ok, provided they have the original FIXED magazine.

MAS 49/56's.

FN-49's.

The Ljungman, and it's Egyptian copy, the Hakim.


Unfortunately, despite their LACK of a pistol grip, all Saiga rifles and shotguns are defined as assault weapons by virtue of being an "AK action", courtesy of a ruling by the CalDOJ. Truly stupid.

Paraphrased, the assault weapon ban includes "any semi-auto rifle with interchangeable magazines that has any TWO of the following: a pistol grip or thumbhole stock, (No CX-4's, sorry.) a threaded barrel, a flash hider, a bayonet lug, or provision for a grenade launcher."

Basically, that'd be any semi-auto with swithchable mags that looks slightly scary or is of modern military origin. MAS 49/56's are hard to find because they come with a built-in grenade launching rig, and have a muzzle break that many folks assume is a flash hider. Last time I looked, though, DOJ didn't have 'em listed. However, distributors won't ship 'em here because they're not sure, and don't want to get in trouble. I think they're still transferable within the state, though, unlike any of the rest of the "assault weapons".


You want a semi-auto in this state, it'd better be plain-vanilla-hunting-rifle-looking thing. M-14's and Mini-14's are about the closest thing to a real rifle left available here, but M-14's are a long way from cheap.

Pricewise, the best bets are the Remington 7400's, the Mini-14's, and the pistol-caliber Ruger PC carbines. They all run about $400-ish. U.S M-1 carbines can be had in this range too, if it's not a collectable one. Remington M-8/81's can be had for this price or even less, but they're 5-round fixed-mag guns that went out of production in the '40's, and are only available in two fairly obscure-but-good calibers, .300 Savage and .35 Remington. They also can be found in 3-4 totally obsolete calibers that you can't get ammo for at all, but that's niether here-nor-there.

SKS's are VERY inexpensive for what they are, and deserve a close look.

Unless it's a beat-up old military surplus gun, all of the rest will START at about $600, and go up. The BAR is about the best of the lot if you're considering a new gun, and has the added bonus of being available in Magnum calibers.

Dunno how much the Kel-Tec runs. If it's reasonable, it's probably worth a closer look also.

If the butchered FAL is really running $1700, that's about 3 times what it's worth. FAL sporters used to sell here for about $500. $1700 is robbery of a captive audience, as I doubt those things are competition-grade match guns. (I could be wrong about that, though. Maybe that's who their target market is. I dunno.)

This state has really stupid laws.

It's a shame you can't have the Saiga in California. I just got one in .223 last week, and took it out shooting two days ago. Reliable as an AK (of course), and with the .223 round, very accurate.

Considering that it was so inexpensive at under $250, I think it's a steal for what you get.