25 yard accuracy with a pistol seems impossible...

this suggestion is no doubt WRONG
you obviously have learned skills with long guns, and shoot better than most of us non-pros at 7 yards and such with handguns

but at "longer ranges" with a handgun, you might be looking at "results" instead of sighting on target.. stupid as it sounds, it is a tad too easy to do with a handgun vs. a rifle
a little bit like a world class All-Pro NFL football wide receiver who long ago forgot how to NOT catch a football thrown right at his chest, but "looking ahead of it" and dropping it, you have to "look it in", not look at it after

pretty crappy analogy, and real likely totally irrelevant

but if you do what you already do, I really don't think your stance or sight picture is an issue
different people like different stances and holds
you probably found your own a long time ago
worrying too much about that might well be a distracting distraction

once you have the basics down, got your stance, got your sight picture, got your squeeze, got your grip, right for you, it's not really muscle memory anymore, it's mental focus, see the shot go thru the target X before the shot goes off, not after
(yeah, I know that sounds contrary to "looking ahead", an oxymoron)

but if you are looking at paper zero.point.zero.one second after the shot, you are not looking at your sight picture, you are looking at paper, no need to, the paper will not move, but your sight picture just might

what some here have better said is lack of "surprise" when the loud sound happened

and as good as snap cap practice is, you will never look too soon for the hole in the paper too soon, not ever, not with snap caps... no hole
(but you can do the same with a hammer triggered laser pulse)

or mebbe not

PS
but I wouldn't waste my time worrying about what gun rag writers can do off a Ransom rest, or off hand

shoot well, be well, be safe

It seems like people practicing for combat don't put much emphasis on 25 yard accuracy, which is troubling.

Shooting fast at 25 feet is great, but 25 yards is a good test of your fundamental marksmanship skills.

Handgunners need to know how to shoot accurately before they speed things up. No one wants a stray shot to hit an innocent bystander.

Get a good .22 pistol, forget the striker-fired and DAO autos until you can master something with a crisp trigger pull. Then you can handicap yourself with combat tupperware.

Just for funzies, I sometimes shoot at 6" steel squares at a distance of 50 or 60 yards. I can normally hit them 4 out of 5 shots, but that is with a highly tuned 1911. I wouldn't even come close with my normal carry gun, a Cw9. That's a long shot with a pistol. Most of my practice is done art 15 yds. 2" groups are not uncommon at that range.

Try putting up a "B27" type target at 25 yards. If you are shooting for self-defense training, I think you might be surprised at the distribution of hits you are getting. It might not be all into the "10 ring" but I bet the majority of your hits will be to something that is going to make whoever is attacking you think twice about their actions.

Being a better shot is always a good thing, but you don't NEED to be able to print pretty groups at 25 yards to effectively defend yourself. (but it cant hurt!)

I understand where you coming from. When I first started pistol shooting I couldn’t hit spit. I found that with good form I just needed to practice......a lot. Everyone shoots just a tad bit different. Eyes see things different. The more cases of ammo down range the better I seam to get. I don't keep historical records and group sizes like a lot of guys, I just shoot a lot because I enjoy it. Since today was the first warm day in a long time I went to my parents’ farm with my brother and was shooting at old kitchen pots (12”) on a dirt hill. With my 1911 I was able to hit them 5 out of 8 times at about 40-45 yards away. Which was better than my brother, who again doesn’t shoot as much as I do. There are some guys on here that will dumb down about those kinds of numbers. But I look at it this way, if I was in a defensive position that would be good enough.

Oh, I forgot. I didn't have my hearing protection (I know its bad!). So I was shooting with one hand so that I could use my other to block my bad ear.

michaelmcgo, this is what I do to help new shooters improve accuracy/match shooting:

1. I let them know that some factory ammunition are not accurate and prone to flyers - This is true and that's why most match shooters reload for accurate match ammunition.

2. After stance and isosceles triangle double thumb stacked grip, I have them dry fire until they do not move the front sight.

3. Using 8x11 copy paper as target at 3 yards (yes 3 yards), I have them practice until all of their 5 shot groups are under 2 inches. All causes for flyers are addressed and corrected as they happen.

4. Targets are moved to 5 yards, 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards WHEN they consistently maintain their shot groups. If shot groups get larger, variable causes are addressed and targets are moved back.

5. Once 15 yard shot groups are maintained, 8x11 copy paper is cut in half and mounted side by side with one lower back at 5 yards. Shots are fired target to target until same 2" groups are maintained.

6. Two 1/2 sheet targets are moved to 7 yards, 10 yards, 15 yards WHEN they consistently maintain their shot groups.

7. Back to step 3 - 6 for double tap drills.


Some long range (25-75 yards) accuracy videos by hickok45 using a short-barrel subcompact! He should say, "Son, that's how you do it" at the end of the videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqIhmu9Fuk&feature=PlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1&index=3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A709ZuVqafY&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1

G27 at 230 yards off hand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk&feature=SeriesPlayList&p=7A3EDDBBE4AC37D1

Sometimes, some folks are better than others at some things, regardless of amount of effort and practice. The good Lord has blessed us all with certain talents and altho everybody is good at something, no one is good at everything. Although I shoot many more rounds a year than he does and have shot handguns for 40 years longer, my 17 year old son can still outshoot me double action with most of my revolvers. He also beats me down everytime we shoot Sporting Clays. I blame it on my eyesight, he claims I'm just old. But when the dog puts up a rooster, I'm the one who generally gets the last laugh.

The truth is that most guns are mechanically capable of grouping far better than most shooters can do. That must lead to the conclusion that most bullets strike within the those parameters each time they are fired, which is to say they shoot where they are aimed.

To produce good groups at any range requires that the sights be in the exact same spot each time the trigger is pulled. In my case, if I am trying for the smallest group possible I have to make myself be patient enough to wait until the sight is where it has to be. Everybody gets the shakes and I'm a great believer in the "surprise" hammer fall but in the end you have to consciously make the hammer fall. That is where the dry firing practice comes into play. It's to know exactly when the hammer is going to fall with one more ounce of pull. If your sights aren't where they need to be, don't make the hammer fall. Again, for me there seems to be a small window of opportunity when the gun comes up and I find the sight picture I want. The longer I wait to pull the trigger the more the shakes are likely to increase to the point to where I'm just guessing where the bullet will strike. I find it better to stop and bring the gun back down, take a deep breath and try again.
Really good accuracy takes your best concentration. Sometimes I'm simply not up to it mentally. As Yogi would say, "It's 90% half mental."

If you are happy with your groups at 7 yds, next time shoot at eight yards. Do not move back to 9 yds until you are happy at 8 and so on. When I found out how bad I was I started at 3 yrds. For me when I could cover 10 shots with a Copenhagen can I moved back one yard. It took many, many stings of fire to get backed up but it worked.

Click to expand...

I can see this helping. Kinda reminds me of the guy who was going to lift the day old calf every day figuring he could lift it when it was full grown.

Like this, Mr Whimsy? Kadet Kit on PCR. Love 22lr stuff.

if you are realy interested in the olympic style pistol training, here you can find the US army manual (94 pages).
Olympic style is standing with one hand. "10" is about 1 inch at 25 metres, calier is 22lr or 32 s&w

Peter

http://www.ronnynilsen.net/Shooting/TrainingGuide/

To a large degree, I'm the same way. At 100 yards, I can't get near a clay pigeon with a centerfire auto. I can break them frequently with my .357, and have even done it more often than I thought with a 2.75-incher. I can shoot all day with a Sig or S&W 9mm and can't get near them.

My suggestion is to crank your target out to 25 yards and concentrate on one-shot groups, then two-shot and so forth until you can print decent 5-shot groups. Then, if that doesn't work, close your eyes and just empty the magazine.

Spray and pray! Something will eventually get there.
I did hit a target at 200 yards with my 4 inch Model 10, but I had to walk them in like artillery...

If it makes you feel any better, I'm a crap shot even at 5 yards. I'd post up a picture of one of my targets, but nobody would believe I was firing a SIG P226, because it looks like I took a few shots with a sawed-off shotgun.

25 yd 10 shots one hand un-supported. Not mine, but a friends.

At 25 yards my group size ranges from a bulk falling in the range of 8" to adding the myriad of flyers to about a foot.

Went to the range this a.m. Seated, shooting off sand bags with .38spl 158gr LSWC reloads, my 6" Python did the 50yrd pop can dance. Standing, shooting off hand, I can consistently hit a pop can at 15-20yrds. An older gentleman there was doing the same thing with a S&W Model 28 and reloaded lead ammo.

Dry firirng is a great way to practice also. I have my sister practice with her 9mm auto by drawing a circle on a blank sheet of paper. I than have her insert a pencil with the eraser tip inside the barrel. I have her pull the hammer back aim at the circle with the pencil tip about 2" away from the circle. She does this several times and is surprised that the pencil marks are all over the place. This helps in muscle strength and stamina, and memory, trigger control, and breathing, and sight picture memory as well.

I practiced at 50 yards, today, one-handed.

At 25 yards, a decent 6" .38 revolver should see you hitting the 9 ring consistently.

Here's my 25-yard target from today. This was shot one-handed, bullseye style. The ones on the left are sighters - seriously. I hadn't shot this gun since I put it together, so I had to play with the sights. I gave some thought to bringing the group up a couple clicks, then gave up, since I was just having fun blasting away. The average has to be above 90%, and that makes me feel good. It's no 2620, but so what? I was using the really cheap Winchester 555 stuff.



If you want to get good at target shooting, stop by www.targettalk.org and http://shell.lava.net/~perrone/bullseye/

[email protected] said:

25 yd 10 shots one hand un-supported. Not mine, but a friends.

Click to expand...

Is your friend Brian Zins?

Seriously, he shot a 100 (10X)? What's his/her classification? Does he/she/it rip this off consistently?

I'll use an inch x 10 yards in this analogy:

If you shoot a 1" group at ten yards, the same group at twenty yards = 2" and at 30 yards it should be 3" and so on. Thus, a 25 yard group would = 2 1/2."

This means . . . IF YOU KNOW THE RAINBOW . . . you should be able to arc the bullets into a 10 inch group at 100 yards . . . and an 20" group at 200 yards.

OTOH . . . a 2" group at ten yards = 5" at 25 yards, 20" at 100 and you'd need to know the trajectory and hold over to hit a 4' x 4' plywood sheet with the group at 200 yards.


Here's the results of the (basically) same size group ratio, standing/unsupported, from a Model 36 S&W snubbie I own. I make my own black square targets to use at the popular distances in the ratio described above.

Thus, the 1" black squares at 10 yards, 2 1/2" squares to use at 25 yards and 5" squares when shooting at 50 yards. BTW, I insist in shooting FIVE shot groups for accuracy from any handgun. Three is not going to give you a true picture of how you are shooting with that gun, IMHO:




Another handgun using 1" black squares @ ten yards:


And from my .44 Magnum at 50 yards (btw, I keep this hunting revolver zero'ed at 75 yards, thus the slightly high group at 50). Although I couldn't see the hit while shooting it, I knew I pulled one shot low, and thus I fired a sixth shot instead of five when shooting this revolver to verify it was ready for the field that day. BTW, this fine revolver is topped with a Holosight red dot sight, and is thus capable of tighter groups than I can expect with factory iron sights like the other handguns utilize in these examples. This gun thus shoots 2" groups/supported @ 50 yards and 8" groups at 200yds at the range. Just aim 34" high and you can sail milk jugs at that distance . . . but it is simply hitting a >8" sized gallon jug with that 8" shot group. Not that difficult once you know the "rainbow" . . . but impossible if you don't know the trajectory:




BTW, group sizes WILL vary . . . based on individual shooters, but over time one can learn what their group size is and . . . through serious practice we can all strive to do better. Also, fine instruction can truly tighten the groups up of shooters who cannot consistently group the same size and PATTERN of groups!

Hope this helps . . .

Apart from learning the basics, practice is the most important part.

When I wanted to improve my handgun skills I started shooting upwards of three times a week. I made a lot of progress fast.

People routinely shoot at 50 yards in NRA Conventional Pistol competition. And that's one handed. Excellence in Competition (Service Pistol) requires iron sights.

Barring physical handicaps, you can do it, at least to a minimal level.

Get yourself a copy of the Army Marksmanship Training Unit manual on pistol shooting.

Smoken357

No, This was shot last year at Friendship Indiana. I shot in the same relay
next to Mike L. who shot this. It was in competition. Won 1st. Oh, must tell
you this was a Black Powder National shoot. Mike is 62 and yes he shoots
pertty much like this most of the time. Mike is a "High Master" class shooter.

OP, the answer to your problem is that you've only been shooting for a few years. It takes several years to master pistol shooting and get tiny groups at 25 yards. Pistol shooting is a simple skill, but the execution of it is difficult.

I've only been shooting for about 4 years and have just started to be able to plant 3" groups on target at 25 yards. What made a huge difference for me was greater emphasis on a straight, non jerky trigger pull. This made a profound difference in my accuracy. My dry practice with snap caps has taken away my flinch and perfected my trigger pull and follow through.

As far as stance and grip, what works best for me is moderate pressure and the isosceles stance minus the wide foot placement. I extend both arms about 90%, lean in a bit, and get much better accuracy than with the weaver.

Just hang in there it takes a lot of practice.