70's and 80's vintage tactics.

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Let me start off by letting you all know why I want to know what I do. I'm a comic writer/illustrator who is concerned with realism. After seven years of research, much of it hands-on, I feel I have a decent grasp of how to draw proper, modern tactics. This board helped me with that.

Then I realized that half of my comic takes place in the late 70's and early 80's. D'oh!

I realize it would be a bit awkward to draw someone using a Chapman or Modern Isosceles stance in '78 (Or would it?), but as much as I dig, I'm have a very difficult time digging up any useful information. Reverse-engineering tactics would appear to be very uncommon practice.

So far all I've managed to unearth is an old speed-shooting setup where sights from a double-action revolver are transplanted onto an automatic (All credit to a Browning HP named Number One there.) And some images have led me to believe that cup and saucering survived into the 1980's.

Handgun tactics are foremost on my list, but any rifle or submachinegun tactics, along with particularly-popular weapon setups from that period would be greatly appreciated, even if they could be viewed as blatant mistakes by today's standards. Anything to paint a believable 1978, 1984, or 1996.

One more thing, if it helps, some of the weapons in question are a tuned Series 70 Colt (With wheelgun sights, left the collet bushing in), an AK74, a Remington 700 in .308, a SIG-Sauer P220 (9mm, heel release), a short-rail CZ75, and a second-gen MP5 (K?).

Thanks again.
 
the 70's and the 80's are considered the Golden Age of IPSC shooting so you could take a look at pictures from that time. that means the cutting edge techniques were the Weaver Stance and the Chapman (weaver w/straight right arm)

those of us who could not afford to mount the Bomar adjustable rear sights on our 1911s resorted to taking the rear sight of S&W revolvers and mounting them onto the 1911 slide. the S&W M-39/59 were getting popular (in LE circles) and the cutting edge 9mm auto was the ASP (a cutdown M39)

speed rigs of the IPSC shooters were the Bianchi Chapman and Hackthron rigs, which were carried either just forward of the strong hip or cross draw with the butt just touching the belt buckle...depending on start position

hope this helps
 
FBI Speed Rock, rocking back on the hips while drawing and firing one handed hip level at zero range attacker, late 60s early 70s.
Edit to add, in the 80s the Miami Classic shoulder rig became legendary through Miami Vice. Good rig.
 
With a good library, you can probably find period FBI and military training manuals.

The other thing to do is keep your character's age and locale in mind: an older guy nearing retirement would have been trained in the 50s, and unless he'd kept up to date, would have fought using older styles a la the one hand fully extended stance of period bullseye shooters.

Also, keep in mind where he's from, and that the cutting edge stuff takes a while to get around.

Even today, the cutting edge tactical knowledge hasn't fully circulated or been accepted, there's still plenty of places where "surround the active shooter, barricading the building with overwhelming force and wait for everyone inside to bleed to death while a SWAT team is choppered in" is still the operating dogma instead of the modern doctrine of "engage immediately, with whoever and whatever you've got".
 
Oh my.

That was a LONG time ago. I was MUCH younger then. Memory lane is a long and winding road!

Mid to late 1970s I had just gotten out of grad school and gone to work. A new-minted masters degree earned $16,500 my first year as a full time gainfully employed university librarian in 1976. I was riding reserve with my small-town PD, with an AL concealed carry permit and a blue square butt S&W Model 36 snub, bought new while I was still in school. The officer I usually rode with carried a 4" Colt Diamondback in a typical LE duty rig.

Out there in the real world in the 1970s, beyond the confines of small town central Alabama, Armand Swenson was the big name for combat 1911s- which was THE gun to have. There were a few other 'smiths of national stature, and a certain number of regional aspirants also. There was enough demand even back then to keep a nationally known 'smith buried in work.

And there was this fella named Lee Jurras, who for a few years had been doing radical things with light hollowpoint bullets and heavy powder charges at this company called Super Vel. Meanwhile back in central AL, I was handloading 158 gr. SWCs at about 800 fps for my Chief's Special. :D

And this wacked-out retired Special Forces officer named Robert K. Brown in Colorado started some glossy mercenary magazine called Soldier of Fortune. Next thing you know, they were running three-gun matches where people actually ran around and shot targets combat style against the clock- what a revolutionary idea! Of course, there are few new things under the sun. A lot of this grew out of earlier evolutions- some crusty old USMC colonel named Jeff Cooper had pitted local combat shooters mano a mano in something called Leatherslap some twenty years before. And this place called American Pistol Institute, later Gunsite, was up and running and turning out lethally trained shooters.

Within five years of that first job, I had moved on to a second job, bought my first 1911 pistol (a Commander model in .45ACP), bought my first AR-15 (a Colt SP-1), come up with a LE trade-in Remington 870 riot gun, and fallen in with a crowd that was shooting SOF style 3-gun matches near Montgomery, AL. Steel targets, plate racks, moving targets, jungle lanes, you name it. We were soooo tacticool, and it wasn't even 1983 yet. Speedloads, transitions, shooting from all sorts of positions and situations.

Guy running the shooting match, literally, was another retired SFer and a friend of Robert K's who often featured in the magazine in those days. He was a working "security contractor" in those days too, when it wasn't quite the same thing as it is now. Not gonna name any names, last time I saw him was at Ft. Bragg in the late 1990s and he was still wearing a long tab on his uniform. He said, "What are YOU doin' here?" and I said "What are you STILL doin' here?":D

And with that, I gotta ask- What am I still doin' here? 'Night all...

hth,

lpl
=====

Some links:

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2006/08/clark-combat-colt-1911.html

http://www.coolgunsite.com/comm_pistols/custom/swenson/swenson.htm

http://www.darkcanyon.net/handguns_by_skeeter_skelton_May_1969.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Technique_of_the_Pistol

http://molonlabe.net/Commentaries/jeff8_3.html

http://www.americanhandgunner.com/Ftrs/WEAVER08/WEAVER08.html

http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/HG_deathofa_-200909/index.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper
 
Great information all around! And some excellent stories to boot (That was epic, Lee).

The cast is a group of, well, soldiers of fortune, and the focus is on a former Marine who served two tours in Vietnam ('67, '68), went on to become a homicide detective with Chicago PD up until 1980 when he signed on with a mercenary outfit. Finally, in 1990, he founds a PMC (I actually wrote that part before I knew that PMC's were real, based on laws that I had found out about enabling their existance. The real world got to it first, haha.)

The former Marine is very up to date, always keeping up with the latest techniques, even by the time the modern arc takes place. He has a fleet of 1911's, but mostly sticks to either his Series 70, or, in the later arcs, a stainless Randall Portsider. (He's a lefty.)

The others are a mixed bag.

A defected Soviet GRU operative (He's the owner of the original CZ75 and the Kalash), he's not exactly bleeding edge, but he's very competent and cool as a cucumber when things get out of hand. I'm fairly confident that actual GRU tactics would be nigh-impossible to learn about (Alas, I am not a ranking officer in the Red Army.) so I'm having him use primarily a Chapman stance and varying Cooper-isms as guidelines. Also I heard somewhere that original CZ75's were popular with the GRU.

A Finnish mercenary (She's the owner of the 700, and a Beretta 93R), I thought it logical to give the sniper a PDW like the 93R, especially since most of the fighting depicted is urban warfare. As far as her methods go, so far it's been fairly intuitive. With the 93R (She uses the stock.) she keeps her elbows in (It just makes sense in tight spaces) and uses the burst-fire function for the most part.

And an Irishman who's been in the business since Heinkells dotted the sky over the UK. A perpetually-one handed Browning HP at his side, often fired from the hip (Thanks Geek) and an accurized bolt-action of some sort in his hands.

And, of course, not everyone will be using advanced methods. In later arcs I have a Weaver-stance using, heavily-tuned Para Ordnance P13-carrying, trained out the wazoo professional on the one hand, and on the other is his mafia contact who shoots a Makarov sideways. I suppose there are always those who don't know what they're doing.

As for the rest, well, I'll compile that along with my revised data from this thread next time I get the chance. Once again, thanks, everyone.
 
I was shooting handguns in the '70s and using the Weaver stance.
Later, I found an old photo from 1935 of someone shooting the exact same way.
So, I wouldn't think it would be unusual to see someone use it in either the 1970s or '80s.

Richard Davis, former head of Second Chance Body Armor, started a bowling pin match in 1975. Mas Ayoob published a book on pin shooting called "Hit The White Part" in 1982.
There are lots of pics in the book of folks shooting pins using the Weaver, and some of people shooting pins out of a Chapman hold, in 1978.

HTH.
 
i remember my dad and the other gentleman who carred liked the Colt Cobra or the Dick Special. they dressed tie & jacket (was de norm back than) and generally used a clam-shell holster that was 2 piece--the through the belt part and the actual holster that attached above it. worn OWB at 3 oclock; this brought it high above the hip bone.
 
May I suggest the untrained Mafia soldier might be carrying something a little flashier than a Makarov, more like a nickled Smith Model 39 9mm or such, to kinda fit in the era.
I too would like to read this one. :)
 
Coupla thoughts:
And an Irishman who's been in the business since Heinkells dotted the sky over the UK. A perpetually-one handed Browning HP at his side, often fired from the hip (Thanks Geek) and an accurized bolt-action of some sort in his hands.

Sounds like your Mick might have been the beneficiary of some old-school point-shooting training in the Commandos or the SOE, so take a look at something from W.A. Fairbairn, the man who trained those groups: http://1896mauser.com/fairbairn/shooting_to_live.pdf

A defected Soviet GRU operative (He's the owner of the original CZ75 and the Kalash), he's not exactly bleeding edge, but he's very competent and cool as a cucumber when things get out of hand. I'm fairly confident that actual GRU tactics would be nigh-impossible to learn about (Alas, I am not a ranking officer in the Red Army.) so I'm having him use primarily a Chapman stance and varying Cooper-isms as guidelines. Also I heard somewhere that original CZ75's were popular with the GRU.

Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6FtPJJisAM

If this looks good, Google "Systema," "Gunpoint Supremacy," and "Major Konstantin Komarov." For AK-handling techniques on video, Google "Sonny Pauzikas" and "Beyond the Firearm."
 
the AK74 was not available in the US comercial market in any reasonable quantity until about 2003.
True AK74's (the full-auto kind) still aren't. CZ75's weren't available either until the 90's.

I get the feeling from the story, the guns in question may not exactly be in the country legally ;)
 
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I actually didn't know that the AK74 was that rare in the US. Of course the '74 in question is in the hands of a Soviet mercenary and being used in Lebanon/Iran in the early 80's, but that is good to know.

And thanks for that video, Kor! Those moves look like nothing I've ever seen (Though the fellow with the AK in the beginning looks like he's sweeping the pistolero's head a few times, yeesh!) Also, thanks for the link to "Shooting to live", I've been looking for that book, along with Appelgate's "Kill or get killed". This will be very handy indeed.
 
You're welcome - I'm also looking forward to seeing the finished product, so anything to help the process and improve the results...
 
Whatever you do, make sure your guys keep their finger on the trigger at all times. Seems like every vintage gun photo/video I have seen represents extremely poor gun safety in this respect.
 
Here are some training photos from the 1970's via the NYC Court Officer academy.
At the time all NYC area agencies ( N.Y.P.D, NYC Correction, NYS Correction, etc)
were doing the same thing.
Several vintage shooting stances shown from those days, including bullseye and the "combat crouch."
http://www.nycourts.gov/careers/cot/histslideshow/index.shtml
PS--I am in the 4th photo down in the column at the far left.
Officer on the right, closest to the blackboard.
 
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