Guns and felons

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I have yet to research this and perhaps someone here could chime in as to the truth of the matter. As I see it, if it's true it's messed up, if it's false it's messed up in different way.

So here's the back story. I have a childhood friend who is currently incarcerated, but soon to be released. Growing up, he was just your average middle class kid, then he got into some bad stuff (ie drugs). He never did anything bad to anyone else, he wasn't the robbing his friends and family type drug user. No history of violence, etc. Bottom line: He's a good guy who made some bad decisions.

We didn't talk for a long time until he was incarcerated. Now he calls me from prison quite often and he sounds like he has really made the best of his circumstances. He takes full responsibility for his past and is ready to make good and live the good life.

We were recently talking and I was asking him whether or not he was allowed to shoot guns when he got out. I knew he couldn't ever own one, but I didn't know if it was ok for him to still get to shoot my guns. He tells me that he was told by several of the authorities that he was never to be in the same house, car or even the general vicinity as a gun, no matter what the circumstances. I also work with a fellow who is a felon, he confirmed that he was repeatedly told all of this as well.

So as I see it, this has some serious implications for felons as well as law abiding citizens. So this means that he can never come to my house, be in my car, or really ever see me at all considering I'm always carrying.

How can this be? What if this was a brother? Can legal gun owners not have their family members in their home if they have been convicted of a felony? This just doesn't seem feasible. Honestly, it seems pretty unconstitutional to me. Does that not infringe upon the constitutional rights of law abiding gun owners?

Even if this is not a law, it seems pretty messed up to tell them this stuff. I would assume it has caused some serious issues in the past within families.
 
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Found this with a quick Google. This is coming from a 20 year cop.

Possession can be of two types; actual or constructive. You're asking about constructive possession...where the firearm isn't in the hand or pocket of the felon but rather where it might be in his bedroom closet, for example.

If constructive possession can be proven, then the felon can be legally liable for prosecution. If you put a firearm under your couch and ask a felon to sit on the couch without telling him the firearm is there, he cannot be held legally liable for it even though he is "around" it.
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In general "possess" doesn't mean he can't be in your house or your car but...

he was told by several of the authorities that he was never to be in the same house, car or even the general vicinity as a gun, no matter what the circumstances.
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That is an overabundance of caution, and will keep him out of jail, and maybe you too.

But, it can vary widely from state to state. Then there is Federal law which was carefully worded to cover things involved in "interstate commerce" which is a whole other can of worms.
 
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Being a convicted felon is a bummer. However you usually don't have this happen to you for cheating at tiddly-winks. We can debate the unfairness of the drug laws but a good portion of the crime in our society is drug-related. If your friend makes a law-abiding life for himself and avoids future trouble he can petition to have his civil rights restored. Then gun ownership and voting rights are his again.
 
I have a convicted felon in my family (drug charge from the 70's). The way he always explained it to me was that as long as my weapons were either locked up (i.e. in a safe) or on my person, then he was legally ok.

I don't know how much this little anecdote is worth to you, but it did come directly from a person who had a vested interest in knowing the legalities of the matter (and keeping himself from becoming a repeat offender). However, I would suggest consulting a decent lawyer for a professional opinion.

If your friend makes a law-abiding life for himself and avoids future trouble he can petition to have his civil rights restored. Then gun ownership and voting rights are his again.
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Good advice. I know of at least one person who has had their record expunged, and is now able to vote, own firearms, and etc. as if the offense had never occured.

R
 
I don't want to hijack this thread and I will probably get flak for what I'm going to say next, but I have always seen the taking away of felons' rights to own firearms as wrong. It only punishes those felons who have decided to abide by the law, which is what we should be encouraging them to do. Conversely, if we can't trust this guy to own a gun, why are we letting him out of jail? It's not like he won't be able to get one.

What makes this even worse is the fact that a felon could be someone who has committed nothing more than what I like to think of as a "crime against oneself" -- drugs.
 
Just be aware that when he gets out, he may be on Parole and not just straight released. If he's straight released, he can't Possess a gun - and as others have posted, if he handles, shoots or otherwise has ready access to your guns, he can get nailed for possession. If he's paroled, that's a whole other ball of wax. His parole officer can basically lay down whatever rules he wants to: No drinking, No gum chewing, No coming within 100 yards of a gun. Until he's off parole, whatever rules his P.O. comes up with are law.

And yes, it is possible to get all of his rights fully restored. Depends on the state, and depends on how the crime was classified. Knew a guy in Arizona, also convicted of a drug offense, that got his gun rights back, but he had to wait 10 years. Recently found out that California will NEVER give a convicted felon their gun rights back -- no matter what the offense was. That is some serious B.S.
 
If he is on parole he can ask his Parole Officer as well. Starting with being VERY clear that he has no intention whatsoever of touching, handling, or possessing a firearm in any manner. I would be concerned that the guidelines given by the people he talked to are not possible to adhere to.

However, I would bet all of us have been in stores (gas stations, etc) that have a gun under the counter literally within arms reach of us. We know we all stand close to CCW folks all the time. Staying 100 ft away from a gun IMO, is impossible over the long haul. If I were to wager a guess (NOT A LAWYER), I would say as long as he avoids any situation that could be construed as him having possession of a firearm he should be OK. Course my tail is not on the line with that so I would ask an attorney, and/or his PO, which is exactly what I would do if my freedom was on the line.

I would see the most common point where he could get into trouble would be riding as a passenger in a vehicle with a gun locked in the glove box. He may not know about it at all but when they get pulled over and the officer finds the weapon in a glove box right at his knees, I could see that turning out badly.
 
You guys are talking about being able to get gun rights restored, but it's not just the state you have to worry about. You have to worry about the federal aspect. While there is a route to try to get your rights to own a firearm restored federally it has no funding. So in actuality no one can get their rights restored except by presidential pardon.
 
...it's not just the state you have to worry about. You have to worry about the federal aspect.
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I'm guessing the OP's friend was not convicted of a federal drug crime, but was sent up on a state offense. Depending on the state (Tennessee?), he might achieve getting the record expunged, after a lot of time and money.
 
I have had two instances with people who worked for me, or were friends. I took legal possesion of a firearm for a "Manager" of mine when he was convicted of telemarketing fraud, "from a prior employer", when he served his time, I was issued an order to alow me to sell the pistol to a pre-arranged person, and hand him the money. Other was from an assault charge from a business partner, who was able to get his right to carry back after his 2 year probation, he recieved no "jail time". "I know he had a very good lawyer", and his case was a 6 figure case. He said he could get it back if he chose to. He was attacked and defended himself, but he is a very skilled fighter, and really did some serious damage to the guy. I don't know if this is true or not, as he is very secretive.I do know that the guy dropped the charges, but I believe the state prosecuted him at that point. "It cost him a lot of money".
 
First, I sincerely hope your friend has dealt with his drug addiction (assumption). Yes, I am assuming that it is probably meth also. Dealing drugs is another matter. I have little sympathy for drug dealers.

He can't go to the range and shoot firearms. I believe you are okay as long as you keep your guns out of his possession. Be careful during the parole period. He doesn't even want to give the appearance of bending ANY rules.

As G. Gordon Liddy always said on his radio show, my wife owns the guns. But I believe there is a bit more to it than that.
 
nyrifleman said:
I don't want to hijack this thread and I will probably get flak for what I'm going to say next, but I have always seen the taking away of felons' rights to own firearms as wrong. It only punishes those felons who have decided to abide by the law, which is what we should be encouraging them to do. Conversely, if we can't trust this guy to own a gun, why are we letting him out of jail? It's not like he won't be able to get one.

What makes this even worse is the fact that a felon could be someone who has committed nothing more than what I like to think of as a "crime against oneself" -- drugs.
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I see it from a different angle.

As a CWP holder in FL, if I show my weapon in public (without cause), I get to spend three years without parole or time off for good behavior as a ward of the state. An individual I personally know got in a fight with his dealer, stole a handgun and returned to argue. He pulled the gun out, fired it in the ground and ran. Somewhere, he ditched the gun. He was arrested and charged with theft of a firearm and brandishing a firearm. Spent six months in county and released to halfway house. He bolted from the HH and was rearrested. Spent another six months in county and was released free and clear. He had a record (non-violent) before this incident.

Other than a few old traffic tickets, I have no record. If I had been arrested for the same offenses on the same day, I would still be in lockup.

I'm not opposed to felons having rights restored provided the crimes were not violent. I'm not real keen on druggies having there rights restored as the recidivism rate is believed to be about one in two.
 
^ so you support punishing half of all people because the other half is bad? Since when should good people be punished for the bad?



IMO if you are free from Jail, you should have ALL your rights restored, or at the very least restored after probation

Even a former criminal who has righted himself and paid his dues deserves the right to defend himself and vote for the government most likely to effect his happiness

If someone is too dangerous to own a gun, he should be in jail still, and IMO just because he hit some weed back in the day or what have you shoudnt mean he is disarmed permanently

Liberty is key, and drug laws are the anti thesis to liberty and we have lost so many of our rights in the name of 'the war on drugs'(and unsuccessful at that)
 
First, I sincerely hope your friend has dealt with his drug addiction (assumption). Yes, I am assuming that it is probably meth also. Dealing drugs is another matter. I have little sympathy for drug dealers.
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I'm guessing the OP's friend was not convicted of a federal drug crime, but was sent up on a state offense.
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No not meth. Not a drug dealer either. Just to clarify, here's the scoop on his situation...

It was heroin that he was involved with. I'm not sure if he got charged with a federal charge or not, but I think he did.

What happened was: He was using heroin on a daily basis for about a year or so. As many of you could imagine, he was about neck deep in addiction. He was buying the stuff from a Mexican gang who had pretty much flooded every part of our city, from the mansions to the ghetto, with heroin. The DEA had been watching these guys very closely for quite some time. At one point, the main delivery guy's car broke down. My friend was offered free drugs to drive this guy around for a few days and he accepted. Essentially, he drove the guy around while he sold drugs. The DEA watched all of this and he was charged with distribution. I can't remember the actual name of the charge, but it's something to the affect of "Conspiracy to distribute a Schedule 1 narcotic... etc." Sounds federal to me. Also, this was a huge bust. There were over 40 indictments when it went to court. I'd assume something that big would be federal, and he is in federal prison.

Give it, he never actually sold anyone drugs, never even touched the large quantity of drugs, but because he aided the guy in selling the stuff, they through the book at him.

The interesting twist is that my friend is very thankful that he received such a stiff penalty. He says that he knew what he was doing and he knew it was wrong. He believes that had he not gone to prison, he would have never had his old self back. He has since participated in about every positive program imaginable while incarcerated. He does nothing but study and teach others (I joke with him that he must catch alot of flack for being the one prisoner who sits around doing calculus for fun). I have helped him get a job lined up and he plans on going back to college upon his release. Best of all, he has rebuilt his relationship with his family and friends, many of whom (including his father) had just about given up on him. I think he will be alright when he gets out.

I understand these laws have some purpose to them, mainly to protect society from the dangerous types, but I don't see any reason why a non-violent offender shouldn't be allowed to go out for some therapeutic paper punching with an old friend. Honestly, as much as I know that drugs and violence run hand in hand, I think we need to take a more individualistic approach to how we treat drug offenders once they are released.

I never really thought about it until I actually knew someone in this position, but now it really bugs me that there are a ton of people out there who will never have the means to protect themselves or their family because of past mistakes. Don't get me wrong, there are a ton of people who should never own a gun. However, there are guys out there who would never hurt a fly that will never own a gun because they smoked pot in their youth. People make alot of bad decisions and do a ton of dumb stuff when they are young, but people also change. Many don't, but that doesn't mean we should treat the ones who do just like the degenerate murderers and wife beaters.
 
On that note, he might never get his rights back. Only a good lawyer would know, but it sounds like the arrest probably saved his life. If I were you, I'd certainly rekindle the friendship as long as he's clean, but I would not slip up one time with regard to the proximity/access he gets to my guns. It could mean serious consequences for you and it's not worth it.
 
I have a couple of friends that had misdemeanors expunged. It is by no means a speedy thing and here at least, it is quite expensive. If you have a college education though, it will make the difference between a $60k+ job and a minimum wage job. I would hate to be in that position, to say the least.

Others have already given you advice on how to cover your bases regarding your firearms legally so I have nothing further to add.
 
You guys are talking about being able to get gun rights restored, but it's not just the state you have to worry about. You have to worry about the federal aspect.
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This does not appear to be true. Here's the explanation:

The rule prohibiting felon gun ownership has some exceptions. There is specific statutory language providing that the federal criminal firearms possession does not apply to individuals who have had their civil rights restored by the state in which they where convicted of the felony.

18 U.S.C. 921(a)(20) provides:

"Any conviction which has been expunged, or set aside or for which a person has been pardoned or has had civil rights restored shall not be considered a conviction for purposes of this chapter, unless such pardon, expungement, or restoration of civil rights expressly [or implicitly as a matter of state law] provides that the person may not ship, transport, possess, or receive firearms."
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In other words, if the state where you committed the felony restores your rights and does not, as a part of restoring those rights expressly forbid you to own firearms, that's good enough for the Feds. And this makes sense. If a particular state does not bar a felon from owning guns, you want a Federal law overriding that so the person can't get guns there and then take them to another state. But if he can clear himself in the home state from a ban, then that's good enough to be recognized by all states.

When you look at what a felon needs to do in order to get those rights back, it's generally common-sense stuff like establishing a good record of conduct and work history, and getting reputable people to vouch for him. Which you'd want. Look at this clip of life at San Quentin. I don't see a lot of people there that I'd like to see with gun rights restored on their release unless they make a real effort to convince society that they are no longer dangerous.
 
^ so you support punishing half of all people because the other half is bad?
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"Good" people don't become convicted felons.

If someone is too dangerous to own a gun, he should be in jail still...
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If only.

...and IMO just because he hit some weed back in the day or what have you shoudnt mean he is disarmed permanently
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I know a number of people that have been busted for pot. The only one who was convicted of a felony had a few other charges attached.

If a person is concerned with his rights to bear arms, he should make every effort to remain a law abiding citizen. If pot is important enough to risk losing rights, well, they made a choice.
 
I don't want to hijack this thread and I will probably get flak for what I'm going to say next, but I have always seen the taking away of felons' rights to own firearms as wrong. It only punishes those felons who have decided to abide by the law, which is what we should be encouraging them to do. Conversely, if we can't trust this guy to own a gun, why are we letting him out of jail? It's not like he won't be able to get one.

What makes this even worse is the fact that a felon could be someone who has committed nothing more than what I like to think of as a "crime against oneself" -- drugs.
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this is a fair quote. criminals will get a gun to commit a crime if they want to.
 
An individual I personally know got in a fight with his dealer, stole a handgun and returned to argue. He pulled the gun out, fired it in the ground and ran. Somewhere, he ditched the gun. He was arrested and charged with theft of a firearm and brandishing a firearm. Spent six months in county and released to halfway house. He bolted from the HH and was rearrested. Spent another six months in county and was released free and clear. He had a record (non-violent) before this incident.
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what does this have to do with the OP?
 
"Good" people don't become convicted felons.
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get out in the world you may meet some really good people that may have had a different life before they met you, or made a couple bad choices. I know I have met people like this and know some.
 
"Good" people don't become convicted felons.
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You would be surprised. And I am in the camp that believes that the so called war on drugs is a lost cause and has been since it started. Alcohol kills far more people but it remains legal. The war on drugs has only been effective in restricting the rights of everyone.
 
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