What Next for Home Defense?

Home Defense

I can tell you from first hand experience you will not be prepared for a surprise gun fight in the dark of night, or anytime for that matter, in most cases.
I'm a Viet-Nam vet and was well trained, I assure you anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
If someone kicks in your back door at 3:00 am, your sound asleep, and while you are trying to get your eye's open, and your head right to figure out what you heard, the bad guys are already in your house.
All the training and shooting at the range will not kick in at this moment, you are startled, not awake and not in your right sense's from deep sleep.
Then come's panic, everything starts going bad for you, you'll fumble your weapon, you don't know where your children are at this moment, are they in the hall running to you, or they in bed.
A million things are going thru your head at once, your wife screaming, the children screaming, the bad guys screaming at you, maybe firing there weapons in the house.
Home invasion is very fast, thats the whole purpose, to surprise you.
There is nothing wrong with training and shooting, don't get me wrong, but that is done when you are wide awake, and having all your senses about you.
No one in coming at you in your house at 3:00 am with a weapon shooting.
A shotgun is a awesome weapon, I have two myself, but I rather have a hand gun on my nightstand.
It will be much harder for the bad guy to wrestle the handgun away from you than a shotgun. If you come out of your bedroom with a shotgun, the long barrel is out in front of you, so easy to grab it, are wrestle with you.
The bad guys will always have the upper hand of surprise on you. How long would it take you to get awake, and have your senses about you to realize someone is in your house?, or is it your child in the kitchen that knocked over something, or maybe your dog or cat.
The home owner has so many check offs before he go's in full combat mode, your at a very big disadvantage.
I have to take a sleeping aid for me to sleep, and once I'm asleep the bad guy could even get in bed with me and I wouldn't know it. I'm sure some of yall maybe in my shoes too, so what are we to do about that problem?
Bad guys have the drop on us for sure, but if he picks a night when I can't sleep, it's gonna be a bad night for the bad guy.

crappie cowboy

According to this article the Judge is overated and I frankly agree with it.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/taurus_judge.htm

Ok, I have not read all of the responses, so if it has already been mentioned...sorry.

Check out http://www.theboxotruth.com to get a better understanding of what may or may not be suitable for your wants/needs. It will also expel some of the myths of what different rounds are capable of (like using birdshot for defense).

It's also a fun site to kill time with...

Wow, it's rare to find such a collection of cliches and nonsense all wrapped up in one handy package. Let's deal with them one at a time:

Nutgun said:

I just bought 2 Judges Personal Defense models. After many conversations at guns shops even though the Judge shoots both 410 shot gun and 45 long colt rounds, all say the 410 is the best round for defense. I like the fact that the Judge is a legal sawed off shotgun that fits in your pocket.

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That is precisely the misperception that Taurus' marketing department loves. The Taurus is NOT a "legal sawed off shotgun that fits in your pocket". It's a bloated, oversized and overweight 45 Colt. Because of its size, weight and the huge cylinder it's a crappy 45 Colt. Because of the rifling it's a crappy 410.

Nutgun said:

The 45 round will probably exit the house right through many walls if you miss the perp. Putting yourself in greater risk from colateral damage if you accidentally kill your sleeping neighbor.

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Anything that will penetrate enough to stop an attacker will penetrate drywall. Anything that won't penetrate drywall, won't penetrate enough to stop an attacker.

Shooting in your house is something you should avoid unless required. If it's required you want to be shooting a load that works. The best way to avoid the overpenetration problem is DON'T MISS.

Nutgun said:

Many people load the Judge with an every other method. One 410 to wound and backed by a 45 to finish the job.

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Sheer nonsense. Never load to wound, never shoot to wound. If you aren't justified in using lethal force, you have no business shooting. Pick a good load and stick with it.

Nutgun said:

Using a flashlight gives away your position immediately. And I feel your tactical advantage. Especially if you just happen to be aiming the light in the wrong direction. So when the light comes on you better be pulling the trigger. And hoping each is looking right where they need to be.

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Home defense is not combat. You can't be shooting at forms in the dark. You have to identify your target first, just in case it's one of your kids, your neighbor who came home from the bar and stumbled into the wrong house, etc, etc.

I use a Kimber .45

My brother used a 12 ga shotgun

Dad uses a S&W .357 magnum

They will all shoot the bad guy just as dead as the next. Get what you want man. Regardless of the caliber or type of gun, you are going to be the happiest if you get what you want. Get the gun that is staring at you through the glass and calling your name. If you want a certain gun, then get it damn it! Thats why we live in America. You are free to get whatever the hell you want!

I've never understood the "lighting" issue? We go through these "what if" scenarios over, and over, and over again.
We spend hours of training with our "complicated" (finger quotes) weapons, and at great expense I might add, but can't figure out where the light switch is? No plan? Yes, I do have a surelight.

This is just me, but if I'm awakened out of a dead sleep the first thing I'm doing is turning on the lights! (of course I have a first line of defense-Doberman Pinscher)

Dialing 911.

Retreiving REVOLVER - (no safetys to deal with, or empty chambers...etc.)
Keeping one hand free. Much thought into this. Whole different discussion.

Not neccessarly in that order of course.

Yeah, I know. "What if they disabled your power"? In short, if it ever gets to that I'll never be in a dead sleep.

That being said, as far as overpenetration is concerned, if it comes down to it where I have to pull the trigger in a life or death scenario I'm pullin it. By our four rules right?*

If I don't stop the perp, potentially all others in my home may die right?

Neighbors as well? Perhaps. But whose fault is that? Mine? The aggressors?
I guess that for a jury to decide.

It ugly anyway you look at it.

I probably didn't help at all. This is a never ending subject.



But don't blame me, I was just in bed sleeping

I have a simple method of dealing with the lighting issue: my house is never entirely dark. There are night lights upstairs for those trips to the bathroom and a table lamp with a low-wattage fluorescent bulb in the main hall downstairs. Those same halls, however, preclude the use of a shotgun unless I want to pay $200.00 to get one of those 14-inch barrels.

I have a selection of handguns that are primary HD weapons. I have spent a good deal of time at the range practicing with them. Most are unloaded and locked in the safe, but there's always one ready to go.

Of course, the big advantage I have over the BGs is the fact I work from home and frequently work all night. My second-floor home office is in an area that gives me an excellent field of fire from either the front or back door and protects access to the bedrooms. For miscreants who work the day or evening shift, I always have a handgun at my side.

My home is never dark either - I have a bunch of the nightlight/emergency backup lights that go bright when the power is cut - and you can pull them out of the socket to use as a flashlight. I have enough to keep the entire house manuevrable, and I also have a few flashlights around. These lights are about $15 each on amazon - not crazy expensive.

To be honest, I got these more for just being able to see when I get up in the middle of the night and have to let the dog out or something like that. They just make life much nicer in general, so it's not like they aren't used at all. Plus, we have hurricanes here so if I ever have to wake up and get everyone into a safe room, I can see even if the power is out.

When I leave the house I have a flash light on my key chain. It's actually surprisingly bright for how tiny it is and I use it all the time for getting into the car at night, etc. Again, not bought specifically for self defense, but very valuable for general living.

This is just me, but if I'm awakened out of a dead sleep the first thing I'm doing is turning on the lights! (of course I have a first line of defense-Doberman Pinscher)

Dialing 911.

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You are going to call 911 every time you hear a noise that may or may not be an intruder?

So this is where the real world meets the theoretical.

Theoretically you should call 911, never leave your room, and never try to clear a house alone.

But over in reality land you simply can't call the cops every time you are uncertain about a noise. In reality land there are times we all "clear a house alone" whether we know it or not.

In those times, in the real world, turning on every light in the house is probably a bad idea if the horrible actually happens and there really is someone in the house.

Some kind of light, either on the weapon or handheld, seems like table stakes for home defense and I'm always surprised to hear how many people don't see the need for one.

In any direction in my house the average shot will be 20 feet or less. The Judge loaded with a tactical load 410 should have no problem hitting and taking down anything. It's a personal defense gun. Not a target or long range gun. It will clear my house or anyone within the danger zone. The barrell length does make it a limited use weapon. It's a close combat item.

I've heard the 45 slug tumbles out of the barrell. A tumbling 45 slug will still kill you within 20 feet.

One BB from a BB gun can kill you if you get hit in the right spot.

I don't plan on using only one shot in the dead of night.

A 410 is good for birds and as a last ditch SD weapon. Don't rely on it to stop the fight.

The 45 Colt in your judge, on the other hand, has been stopping men, buffalo and God knows what else for something like 130+ years... most of that time using blackpowder and plain old lead bullets. New manufactured SD ammo in 45 Colt is as good as anyother SD handgun round, and better than 99% of most. The 45 Colt (especially with modern loadings) equals and can even better the venerable 45 ACP in ballistics. Heck, some loads in 45 Colt are more powerful that a 44 Magnum!

As for the OP, a shotgun, with 20" barrels or less isn't unwieldy at all. Practice and acquaint yourself with one. You'll see. This is particularly true in a side-by-side or over/under configuration shotgun, where there's not 'action' and therefore the gun itself is shorter overall by a couple/few inches.

BTW: use only buckshot in a shotgun (12 gauge) for SD purposes, or you could end up just pissing the BG off.

Nutgun said:

In any direction in my house the average shot will be 20 feet or less. The Judge loaded with a tactical load 410 should have no problem hitting and taking down anything. It's a personal defense gun. Not a target or long range gun. It will clear my house or anyone within the danger zone. The barrell length does make it a limited use weapon. It's a close combat item.

I've heard the 45 slug tumbles out of the barrell. A tumbling 45 slug will still kill you within 20 feet.

One BB from a BB gun can kill you if you get hit in the right spot.

I don't plan on using only one shot in the dead of night.

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You must be deliberately trolling. You can't actually believe all this nonsense.

Nutgun... do some REAL research on the 410 and scattergun patterning in general, then come back. Any gun is better than NO gun... but if you can choose your weapon, it sure as hell shouldn't be a 410 ANYTHING for defensive situations.

As for the long gun/handgun topic in general, a handgun should be used to fight your way to your long gun (read: 12 gauge with buckshot or a carbine). A long gun in a HD situation is more of a stationary weapon. Best used once all your loved ones are secure and if you have to 'hold the fort' until the blue cavalry arrives.

If you wish to continue hallucinating that you will undoubtedly do "x, y and z" during a firefight, God bless... just list my on your will as a beneficiary first.

Expect nothing, be prepared for everything. Theres a small chance you'll ever have to use your gun, but if you do have to use a gun to defend yourself or loved ones, why use such a proven loser caliber/shell?!?! Chances are you won't hit the POS at all, but if you do, you best hit him with something that works.

Whatever, talking to people who have made up their minds is pointless. God speed.

I will never use a handgun for defense if I have the chance to grab a long gun first. My primary is the 870 loaded with #4 buck, my wife's primary (and my backup) is an M-1 carbine.

If you get the 870, think hard about getting a tactical barrel with sights for it too. It goes on and off with one hand nut. Also put a little effort into training and learning how your defensive load will pattern with your particular gun.

Nutgun said:

Using a flashlight gives away your position immediately. And I feel your tactical advantage. Especially if you just happen to be aiming the light in the wrong direction. So when the light comes on you better be pulling the trigger. And hoping each is looking right where they need to be.

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I'd rather lose whatever tactical advantage I might have had than shoot blindly in the dark. At least it won't be any worse than a daytime scenario. And while it's possible for the bad guy to point-shoot at the light, I can at least see him and aim properly. Used correctly, which is to say in large part intermittently as needed, a flashlight will still give you an advantage overall. If you're really afraid of the bad guy shooting at the light, you could use a handheld unit held away from your body.

crappie cowboy said:

I can tell you from first hand experience you will not be prepared for a surprise gun fight in the dark of night, or anytime for that matter, in most cases.
I'm a Viet-Nam vet and was well trained, I assure you anything that can go wrong, will go wrong.
If someone kicks in your back door at 3:00 am, your sound asleep, and while you are trying to get your eye's open, and your head right to figure out what you heard, the bad guys are already in your house.

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That's why all of my doors and windows are reinforced and equipped with alarms. They'd have to try mighty hard to get in, and if that doesn't wake me up (I'm a fairly light sleeper regarding sounds), then the alarms will.

crappie cowboy said:

All the training and shooting at the range will not kick in at this moment, you are startled, not awake and not in your right sense's from deep sleep.
Then come's panic, everything starts going bad for you, you'll fumble your weapon, you don't know where your children are at this moment, are they in the hall running to you, or they in bed.
A million things are going thru your head at once, your wife screaming, the children screaming, the bad guys screaming at you, maybe firing there weapons in the house.

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I train for waking up suddenly, too. It's easy because my cat wakes me up at least once a night , usually around 2-3am, which has given me plenty of opportunities to practice. By far the greatest challenge for me is actually blurred vision from all of the crud (dried mucus) in my eyes that I can't always get rid of quickly without irritating them. Usually it's not too big of a deal, but occasionally it is, and I'm still looking for a remedy for it--something I can do quickly that works every time and has no drawbacks.

crappie cowboy said:

Home invasion is very fast, thats the whole purpose, to surprise you.
There is nothing wrong with training and shooting, don't get me wrong, but that is done when you are wide awake, and having all your senses about you.
No one in coming at you in your house at 3:00 am with a weapon shooting.

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That's a good thing to keep in mind and try to account for if at all possible.

crappie cowboy said:

A shotgun is a awesome weapon, I have two myself, but I rather have a hand gun on my nightstand.
It will be much harder for the bad guy to wrestle the handgun away from you than a shotgun. If you come out of your bedroom with a shotgun, the long barrel is out in front of you, so easy to grab it, are wrestle with you.

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I went with a handgun as my first home defense firearm for a variety of reasons, which include general handiness and maneuverability, and the fact that I'm the only person in my household who is comfortable with anything larger. It's a semiautomatic primarily for its higher ammo capacity and ease of reloading, but I plan to eventually stash a few revolvers around the house (since the rest of my family is more comfortable with them) and add a 12-gauge shotgun to my arsenal (rifles and carbines will come along later when I can find good "excuses" for why we NEED them ).

crappie cowboy said:

The bad guys will always have the upper hand of surprise on you. How long would it take you to get awake, and have your senses about you to realize someone is in your house?, or is it your child in the kitchen that knocked over something, or maybe your dog or cat.
The home owner has so many check offs before he go's in full combat mode, your at a very big disadvantage.

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This should be everybody's greatest concern regarding home defense, and that's why one should set oneself up for success in any ways that one can, including the measures that I talked about above, as well as things like turning on the lights if it would make you more effective.

Nutgun said:

In any direction in my house the average shot will be 20 feet or less. The Judge loaded with a tactical load 410 should have no problem hitting and taking down anything. It's a personal defense gun. Not a target or long range gun. It will clear my house or anyone within the danger zone. The barrell length does make it a limited use weapon. It's a close combat item.

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Two words: Mall, Ninja

I've heard the 45 slug tumbles out of the barrell. A tumbling 45 slug will still kill you within 20 feet.

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If it actually hits you in a vital organ or artery. Bullets that tumble in flight are one of the reasons muskets weren't particularly accurate.

One BB from a BB gun can kill you if you get hit in the right spot.

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Yup, a solid hit in the imagination will do it every time.

I don't plan on using only one shot in the dead of night.

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If you're using a Judge, that's probably a good idea.

If you think a long gun is easier to wrestle away than a handgun, you probably don't have CQB training or RETENTION training with EITHER. If someone grabs your long gun, you have the advantage of leverage and holding it on two points. Also, as Clint Smith put it; "They say you can’t use a rifle or shotgun indoors because a bad guy will grab the barrel. Yeah? Well, he better hang on, ‘cause I’m gonna light him up and it’ll definitely be an "E" ticket ride."

I flat reject the notion that the bad guy has all the advantages. This is YOUR house. YOU know where the floor creaks. YOU know which rooms are occupied and which ones aren't. YOU know the best ways in and out. YOU know where you can corner someone and there is no escape. YOU know how you can get out and leave the BG inside if you need to. HE is in the strange terrain. HE has to GUESS all of these things.

Just because you are waking up doesn't mean that you are useless. You absolutely will sink to your lowest level of training. Just because it isn't ideal doesn't mean you are out of the fight. You might be waking up, but does that mean you should give yourself three minutes to wake up first? You use what you have been dealt and fight to win.

And yeah, get rid of this 'overpenetration' talk. There is no such thing. Any projectile worth using defensively is going to consistently penetrate a human target. If it wouldn't, why would you expect it to do enough damage to stop the bad guy? There are two kinds of shots. Those that miss and keep going to whatever is beyond, and those that HIT and continue to what is beyond. You can never assume otherwise. The way to prevent innocent people getting hit is to plan ahead, know the layout of the house, do as much as you can to put likely fields of fire away from innocents, and do everything you can to upgrade to a brick house. Like doberman says, you have already decided that you are going to shoot to defend yourself if it is necessary. If you wait for the shot that has no possibility of unintended damage or injury, you will never shoot. Sell your guns, put sensors on your doors, call the police and hope for the best.

Mixing loads, in a shotgun, revolver, or handgun magazine is never a good idea.

When you wake up from a dead sleep, you have a night vision advantage over the guy who just came in from outside. AGAIN, it is easier for YOU to move through YOUR house in the dark than it is for HIM.

Clearing a house is not something you should do if you don't HAVE to. It's a very bad idea to try it at all if you haven't been trained in HOW to do it.

Home Defense

mljdeckard.....I surely pray that nothing ever happens to you and your family, but if it does happen you will find out that you will not be prepared.
As you talk now about it all, you'll do this and that, you got it all worked out in your mind. It might not happen the way you think it will happen.
What will you do if you are in the shower, are sitting on the pot, you and your wife in the shower together, your gone to the store, and your family by them self's.
In your mind you got it all worked out, but things don't always go the way you want them to go, even if is your house, and you know it like the back of your hand.
If the BG breaks in, and your in the shower, you are gonna do just what they tell you to do, or they will kill you.
I don't give a rats butt about the training you have, even if you are Rambo, they will have the upper hand with a planned surprise attack on your house.
It is nice to have confidence in yourself, but life don't always go as planned, trust me I know, I have been there and done that. The only thing your can do is try to be prepared the best you can, and ask God to keep his mighty hand on your family and home

Good Luck and God Bless.............crappie cowboy

First of all, I'm not talking about the average 410 shell you remember from childhood.

They make tactial loads especially for the Judge. Do some research.

Now everyone raise their hand that wants to stand 20 feet away from me while I shoot either a 45 or a 410 at them? I'll aim for the head or chest. Does anyone expect to walk away from the test?

Ok. I'll add 'in the shower with my wife' to training scenarios.

Maybe YOU would feel helpless. That doesn't mean that the rest of us would.

First of all, I'm not talking about the average 410 shell you remember from childhood.

They make tactial loads especially for the Judge. Do some research.

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It's still a .410. It may have some weird number of pellets, or a slug and a pellet, or a little extra powder, or whatever, but the fact remains you can't really fit more than 3-4 pellets of buckshot in a high-brass .410, and you won't get them moving very fast from a 3" barrel. If it has more pellets than that, they must be smaller, and are therefore inferior for puncturing bad guys.

Now everyone raise their hand that wants to stand 20 feet away from me while I shoot either a 45 or a 410 at them?

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I freaking HATE HATE HATE when people use this argument. Y'know what? I wouldn't stand there and let you shoot me in the head with a paintball gun. Or a Crossman pellet pistol. Does that make them reasonable choices for self defense? Just because I don't want to get shot with a .22 Short doesn't mean you can make a good argument for its efficacy on human targets. Same goes for .410.

Please look up and down this thread. You're pretty much the only one arguing that your Judge is a smart home defense weapon. There are a lot of people in here with a lot of experience and knowledge. Stop and think about why none of them are agreeing with you.

There are only two basic catagories people are using here. Shotgun or pistol.

The Judge is both.

In a home invasion in the middle of the night, IF you have to discharge a weapon how many feel that everything will ONLY require one shot?

I hope it never happens but if it does the odds are probably with more than one round being fired. At least that's what I'm planning for. Whether that is because of multiple perps or a monster that requires more than one. I don't want to be wasting shots with clear misses, but a serious wound is better than a miss. Obviously one shot one kill would be ideal. How many have super sniper skills?

Everyone here seems to be a master shooting cucumber with incredible night vision and targeting skills under extreme stress. One shot masters that can fix everything. Training may help but at what level and how often?

There are only two basic categories people are using here. Shotgun or pistol.

The Judge is both.

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(fixed for spelling)

actually.. the judge is neither.

It is a sub-par shotgun, with a rifled barrel that doesn't pattern properly, and a barrel length that is too short, even for your "tactical" 410 loads.

it is also a poor pistol, with a cylinder almost twice as long as a 45 colt round, overweight, under capacity, and with sub-par accuracy.

I have a Swiss army knife that will do 34 different things, but i have a real fixed blade knife for when i really want to cut something, and i have trauma shears for work instead of the scissors on my Swiss army knife.

The only role I would use a Judge for might be a car gun. Where you need something you can draw to shoot out either side of the vehicle from the inside, where it's too tight to flip a rifle around, to be used at a range that can be measured in inches. The range on a judge runs out very quickly. I haven't personally patterned one, but I know exactly what happens when you shoot snakeshot through a rifled barrel. It donuts at about ten feet.

When I have room to maneuver, I would use a full-size shotgun. Why limit the number of pellets or energy when you don't have to? Why would you think that shots from a Judge are going to end the fight better? Why do you think that shooting under extreme stress will be better with a Judge?

I wouldn't even use one for that. I want my car gun to be able to punch through a car door with authority, I don't think i 410 will do that, even with buckshot.

for leaving in the barn to take care of snakes...sure why not.