Educate me on the gunshow "loophole"

Are you asking a question, or forming a statement as a question?

There is nothing special going on at gunshows that doesn't happen elsewhere (parking lots in public places, for instance). Gunshows only give a convenient venue for those person-to-person non-paperwork transfers.

ATBackPackin said:

Is this just some way for THEM to limit legal sales of firearms or is there genuinely a loophole that should be closed?

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It's another bureaucratic paper trail so fees and taxes can be collected.

You've got it right. The anti's will say it facilitates an otherwise ineligible buyer, while they fail to mention that the same face to face gun sale can be be consumated right outside the local poilce station, among other places. What's the difference............zippo!

The "gunshow loophole" is the same as the "newspaper classified loophole" or the "buddy at work loophole".

People sell leaglly owned stuff to each other all the time. It's a red herring to infringe on our rights.

True, those rules apply the same as everywhere else.

The issue that comes up is that there are some sellers at gunshows (and parking lots, and in classified ads) who don't really care about following these rules and only care about making a sale.

Some people want more formal oversight at gunshows. Others want to get rid of all informal transfers.

There have been some pretty clear instances where investigators showed up at gunshows posing as buyers, stated outright some clear exception to being able to legally posess a firearm, and the seller not caring and going ahead with the transaction. Many of the sellers did the right thing and wouldn't sell.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,561881,00.html

Personally I would not sell a firearm to anybody I didn't know well without going through a dealer to take the liability off of me. Buying from a private seller also gives me the heeby-jeebies since the last thing I need is to unknowingly buy a stolen gun. Again, it would have to be somebody I knew or somebody who had pretty clear provenance of where the gun came from. No parking lots for me, thanks.

Sure, I don't like the Gubermint knowing my business, but a papertrail can be very handy sometimes.

-J.

ATBackPackin the plain and simple version here is if you have to ask the governments permission to do it it isn't a right now is it ?

The "Loophole" is nothing more than the Government forcing you to follow the same laws as an FFL even though you're not running a business , but just a private person selling your private property and in the process forcing the "buyer" to ask the Governments permission to buy your gun . Which if you understand the one single word in the Second Amendment "Infringe" " to encroach upon in a way that violates law or the rights of another" you know the NICS , Purchase permits and forms like 4473 , etc. are all infringements of your Rights .

Think about it in most of major cities to even shoot a gun without several hours of driving to the country you have to go to a indoor range that needed the Local Governments permission to even be built and then every year they must pay license fees taxes etc. . O and did you know that if you have a business you have to pay a tax on each and every space for customers parking their cars in ?

Do you have to go to a special place and pay an hourly fee to speak your mind freely with your neighbor ? Do news papers have to allow the Government to "Proofread" every page prior to printing and selling/distributing Them as part of the whole daily Paper or are they only allowed to operate in Government approved facilities or do the writers have to pass background checks before being allowed to write every single editorial piece they spew their garbage in ?

The above and the so called Loophole are nothing more than the Government "Infringing" on your Rights and people have been allowing it to happen for over 100 years now and it wont stop until we make them stop it .

True, those rules apply the same as everywhere else.

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What rules regarding face-to face transfers specifically apply everywhere?

I've bought, sold and swapped firearms all my life. I've bought and sold in newspapers, bought, sold and swapped with friends or people I met on the range. I don't think I've ever bought a a gun at a gun show (because I live in a remote place with no gun shows), but the "Gun Show Loophole" would apply to me as well. If such a law passed I'd have to go through an FFL and both parties would have to pay a premium. There would be no more guns advertised in newspapers - most people would sell through consignment with a 30% mark-up, or just pawn their guns for a fraction of their value.

The "loophole" (for most transactions) has nothing to do with gun shows. It just means I can't trade my nice J frame S&W to you, for your two Bulgarian Maks and 4 boxes of ammo. That's what it means.

Think in terms of automobiles. If the same rules applied, you could only sell through or to, a car dealer.

Not really.

They try to make it sound more complicated than it is. They try to convince people that there is more happening at guns shows than really is happening.

Federal law requires the sales of NEW guns to go through an FFL. Not used guns. Whether or not it is at a gun show makes no difference.

Do we have the right to keep and bear arms? Yes.
Do we have the right to assemble peacefully? Yes.
Does one man have the right to sell his property to another man? Yes.

The rest is smoke and mirrors.

It is illegal to go to another state to buy a gun and take it back home. BUT, it is not in the law that the seller is required to prove residency of the buyer to sell a gun. If the buyer breaks the law, it is not the seller's fault. Now, IF, I am approached by a buyer at a gunshow, and he says something to the effect of; "I am in town from L.A. and I thought I would buy a gun while I was here." I would tell him that this is illegal, and I wouldn't help him break the law.

I am not aware of any states that require ID for face to face sales. It is more likely that they would require an FFL transfer, this kind of verification is actually enforceable. If YOU want to ask for an ID to make yourself feel better, it's up to you. You can refuse to sell if you have a bad feeling about it. But this is you following your gut, not the law.

It is illegal to go to another state to buy a gun and take it back home.

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Is that a federal law?

Yes, (as I understand it,) transactions across state lines require an FFL.

At the risk of incriminating myself, (a little, this was many years ago,) at the end of my first stretch in the army in Germany, I bought a handgun from a friend of mine. I was just short of my 21st birthday, so I was not allowed to legally cake ownership, have it put on my orders, and hand-carry it home with my checked baggage. So instead, I went to visit the guy I was buying it from in a different state. We had our fun, I took it home, didn't like it, and sold it about a year later. I later found out that this transaction requires an FFL. I went to another state with the intent to take ownership of a gun and bring it home.

AT-

He might have broken NY's state laws for transactions and transportation. The anti states have a lot of silly laws I don't bother to keep track of.

I guess a big part that was confusing me was I had heard a news report stating that a resident of NY could go to a gun show in PA and purchase a firearm and then take it back to NY and sell it to someone whom isn't supposed to have one.

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They could. But they could also just drive to another state and looked in the classifieds. I don't think very many criminals are doing either thing. If some guy with baggy pants and prison tats shows up at your door (or at a gun show) to inquire about the Glock you're selling - are you going to sell it to him?
Most illegal guns come from burglaries. Or they buy from "straw dealers" who legally purchase then transfer to criminals. It's already against the law and that doesn't stop it because criminals don't obey the law - they're criminals...

Make new laws and they'll break those also.

Colorado voters by a wide margin voted to close gunshow loopholes years ago. Wide margin because responsible gun owners joined the vote to require background checks at gun shows. People may buy and sell a variety of goods all the time, firearms should not pass hands as though they are out of a candy dish.

I guess a big part that was confusing me was I had heard a news report stating that a resident of NY could go to a gun show in PA and purchase a firearm and then take it back to NY and sell it to someone whom isn't supposed to have one.

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Sure they can, but it would be illegal.

A person from NY can also drive to PA and burglarize a home, steal a gun, and then take it back to NY and sell it to someone whom isn't supposed to have one. That doesn't make it legal, and no amount of legal maneuvering will stop that.

I guess a big part that was confusing me was I had heard a news report stating that a resident of NY could go to a gun show in PA and purchase a firearm and then take it back to NY and sell it to someone whom isn't supposed to have one.

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That scenaro could happen a number of ways. If it was a face-to-face purchase, it would be illegal because the buyer and seller aren't residents of the same state. If the purchase is made from an FFL at the gunshow, it's a legal purchase. But the endgame is illegal any way you look at it. If the second buyer back in New York is not legally allowed to own the gun, it is illegal to sell it to him/her. The problem then is how the seller is supposed to know: non-FFLs can't access the NICS system. That's why the seller in most private sales will ask for ID and use a certain amount of common sense for CYA purposes.

firearms should not pass hands as though they are out of a candy dish.

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So, if your co-worker owns a gun you like, you can't buy it from him? You can't sell guns in the classified section of your newspaper? If two private persons meet at a gun show they can't sell/buy a gun?

I don't think so. It sounds like feel-good legislation to me. The FFL dealers were already required by law to do a background check whether at a gun show or not.

THEY say that there is a loophole at gun shows that needs to be closed. THEY say that a person from NY can come to a gun show in PA and buy a gun with no ID and no background check.

Not legally.

Here is what I thought I knew:

I thought person to person sales had to be between people of the same state.
True.

I thought person to person sales required the seller to see the buyers ID.
I don't think it's legally required, although it is an excellent idea.

I thought person to person sales required the seller to believe the buyer was on the up and up.
True.

"Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. "

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html#gca-unlicensed-transfer

I thought person to person sales required the seller to also believe the gun is for the buyer.

I don't think that is required of private individuals, although again it is an excellent idea. It is required by law for dealers.

I guess I also do not understand what gun shows have to do with person to person sales except that they can take place there, but they don't have to.
You've hit the nail on the head. There's nothing different at gun shows. Dealers still have to play by the rules that apply to dealers and private individuals still have to play by the rules that apply to them.

It's just that "gun shows" are mysterious and frightening for the uninitiated. If they said what they REALLY want, which is to ban private party sales, they'd generate more opposition.

Rudy2281=

THAT is EXACTLY the kind of thinking we are working to overcome.

Colorado voters by a wide margin voted to close gunshow loopholes years ago. Wide margin because responsible gun owners joined the vote to require background checks at gun shows. People may buy and sell a variety of goods all the time, firearms should not pass hands as though they are out of a candy dish.

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Ahhh, I see what you did there. Very clever. So, anyone who doesn't share your authoritarian, anti-liberty, views is an irresponsible gun owner, eh?