CCW class update, women afraid of guns

Maybe that's what annoys me the most about some sellers at gun stores. I can count on every time I hit the several local guns stores I go to seeing a lady in there shopping for a gun, and the idiot salesman (and even saleswomen) are pushing a LCP or snubby revolver as a perfect choice for a new shooter. And anyone who has even a bit of experience with shooting knows full well a short barreled firearm is a challenge for even an experienced shooter to shoot accurately. And the experience of shooting it isn't always a lot of fun either.

Putting such a firearm into a new shooters hand is effectively the same as introducing them to shooting with a .44 Magnum of larger handgun, the felt recoil for a shooter new to the sport, and not really prepared for it tends to make them want to put down the gun and never shoot again. That's hardly the way to cultivate a new customer.

We had basically two instructors for my CCW class, the firearms instructor for our county sheriff's department, a middle aged guy, and the bookkeeper for the gun shop I usually buy my stuff from. She's a quite accomplished instructor, and makes most guys look like rookies on the sporting clays course, shooting her 12 gauge shotty while the big bad guys are using 16 gauges or 20 gauge shottys. Damn it's fun to watch!

Maybe that's what annoys me the most about some sellers at gun stores. I can count on every time I hit the several local guns stores I go to seeing a lady in there shopping for a gun

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Putting such a firearm into a new shooters hand

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How do you know the lady shopping for the gun was a new shooter? If you knew it was a fact that the lady shopping for the gun was a new shooter than what difference does it make that it was a lady?

I may be taking your post completely wrong, but it seems to me like you are saying the clerks were MORE wrong for pushing those guns on a woman new shooter than if they were pushing those guns on a male new shooter. Is the woman any more/less capable of handling those guns because she is a woman, regardless of her experience compared to a man of the same experience level?

My first wife and I took the course together, and she and I scored number 1 and 2 on the shooting portion. She beat me by 2 points using my Hi Power in 9mm. Our male instructors didn't really even refer to her as female even though she was the only one in the class, and the youngest student by several years to boot. That is until she asked about carry methods, holsters etc? And that advice was actually about how to fit a holster to the female form properly, and very useful to her. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Just pass your course, and don't patronize that establishment again is my advice.

I hear the conversations, if they say they're buying their first gun, and they have no experience in shooting, kind of makes me think they're new shooters. But perhaps that's my mistake.

Why is it that any time a person posts an opinion, someone wants to take them to task as if they're an idiot or something? Why is it someone wants to assume an insult towards women has been made if it's not clarified that a newer shooter, regardless of gender, shouldn't be steered towards a smaller handgun. People go shopping at a gun store (not like a Gander Mountain or other chain store) believing a local shop, with more mature salespersons, is the right option for finding the right gun. Those new to shooting may have looked a little bit on-line at guns before going to a store, but they're depending on the experience of the salesperson to steer them towards the proper choice.

I'd have to think they consider a young woman, slightly built, if carrying a larger gun in a holster would have a problem concealing a large frame gun, so they point them towards a smaller gun.

Yes, regardless of gender, a short barreled handgun stays the same, a handful for even a person with experience in shooting. A really stupid choice for a person brand new to shooting.

Why would a salesperson try to push a smaller gun on a new shooter of either gender? Hell if I know. But the fact remains, younger women tend for the best part to be of slighter stature than a young guy. Yes, there are exceptions, but as a rule, more young women are smaller stature. I just bought a LCP, I'm a 55 year old male, with years of shooting experience. I can't say shooting that little gun is a lot of fun, and I wouldn't trust it for an encounter more than arms length away from me. And at 5'7", and around 200 pounds, I ain't no little guy.

I posted my opinion, it's mine, and I sure don't expect everyone to agree. But it seems to me you're reading something into it that you can use to claim I'm insulting people, or start a fight. Either way, I ain't playing that game.

Girlfriend of 1 year, both 21, med school for me and Rockette's for her, loves shooting and prides herself immensely on being able to outshoot me with a .22 LR (of course, the sighting was off and she missed and accidentally hit about .1'' from the cross bullseye from 20 yards). She is a marine brat (father met with Gen Kelley before he died of service related injuries) and has never had guns around growing up since then. Instead, her step dad(also a marine) had a machete behind the bed for when the SHTF. First of all, what would be more traumatizing for a young girl to witness, and second of all, what should I graduate her to shooting (she is 5'10'' and has as big of hands as I do, but stick arms). Thanks everyone.
Happy Hunting.

My wife, now 71, shot for the first time last year, and at close range, she'd be deadly with her choice of handguns, a Ruger Service 6 chambered in .38 Special. She's had shoulder surgery on both shoulders for injuries, both garbage related. Her right shoulder was injured from her fighting with a large urban style rolling trashcan. Her left from trying to throw a garbage bag filled with heavy stuff she was throwing out from the refrigerator over the fence out back. So she's naturally nervous about re-injuring her shoulders. She handles that Service 6 just fine.

She hates my XD in 9mm, she won't even try my Glock 22. She's shot my 1911 and doesn't like it at all.

Even skinny arms can take the recoil of any of the above, it's more technique than upper body strength. If she likes the .22, let her go with it.

Just signing in here ... only found this thread 5 minutes ago.

Have not read - busy week - but will read asap.

IMO, this is an important thread.

Very important.

Nem, biologist

She claims up and down that she "shot the 'nine'" implying the Browning Hi-Power (the only 9mm, but I know I knew better than to give her a semi-auto 9mm without warning her first time shooting that it is continuously ready to fire. Imagine someone turning around with muzzle pointed chest level "I hit it!". Oh, to be young.

I knew a lot of female shooters in police work. Sure, some of them were as bad as the men, but many were darn good with their weapons. As has been pointed out on THR, correctly, most police are not avid shooters. However, a police range is a good place to learn that there is no real difference between men and women when it comes to pistol handling. Some of each are scary good, some of each are scary bad. (BTW, I know of two women officers during my career who who fatally shot armed felons. It ain't all about the target range.)

The last time my wife and I went to the range together, I brought 6 handguns in our handgun bag. I started laying out the first two we intended to shoot (a Walther PPK .380 and a Springer 1911A1 Milspec .45) when the guy from the next lane leans over and says, "Can the little lady handle that .380?" She looked at him and said, "The .380 is my husbands. I shoot the 1911." And proceded to pick it up, load it, rack it, and fire 7 rounds down range, all in the 10 ring. The guy packed up and left! LOL!

While I agree that the instructor made a bad assumption about the student, I don't think I'd be too hard on her. Yes, she could have said things differently, and then it would have been a non-issue.

She has probably encountered more than a few women who come to class and who MIGHT have fired a few rounds through their relative's/spouse's/friend's gun before, and done just fine with it. However, if you have a new shooter who has NEVER fired 50 rounds in a single shooting session, that task can be daunting, especially with a larger caliber weapon. When I'm practicing with one of the bigger guns, 50 rounds to me is just a warm-up! But I didn't start that way.

Every time you teach a new shooter you learn something as an instructor. Maybe the words you choose or the way you demonstrate a technique isn't always understood easily by a new student, and that's why it's always a good idea to try to evaluate your classes when they end. I like instructors who ask students to fill out comment cards at the end of class because it helps refine the way the lessons can structured, and gives the students some outlet for criticism that they may not voice in a class session.

The gun store treatment that women receive is usually a bigger problem than the original post about the CCW class instructor.

The gun boards that all of us women usually comment on are full of first person stories where gun store salespeople either completely ignore women customers (unless there's a man with them), or we get the condescending "little lady, you probably can't handle that big 9mm, why don't you look at this nice revolver that you can keep in your purse".

I will say to all the gun store owners and salespeople out there who might be reading this - the internet is a marvelous thing! Women network and talk about their experiences in stores, and we take our money to places that we feel treat us with respect. Don't just assume that the woman who comes into your business knows nothing. If we want your recommendations about a specific weapon, we'll ask you. My 2 cents worth!

What do you think of the you tube videos of some guy handing a women a large handgun (usually 500 mag) to shoot for the first time. Then they seem surprised when the barrel bounces of her forehead.
I hate to think how many women have been turned away from shooting after such an experience. Those guys are doing a grave injustice to our sport.

hoodfu said:

The first time I fired a handgun, I was terrified, and I'm a big dude. It's like holding a lit M80, knowing it's going to go off and you can't let go. It didn't help that I had awful hearing protection on as well. I got over it within a few sessions and now I'll shoot even big stuff, but I never look down on people who are afraid of it.

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Same here.

I thought I was all macho man and I was flinching with my 9mm.

It took me a lot of practice.

Then I started flinching with my .44 mag.

It took a me a lot of practice too.

I did see one video on Youtube that had me seeing red. . .dumbass DRUNK handing a loaded .50 cal to an obviously DRUNK woman and having her shoot it while they filmed.

I pray that I don't live anywhere near such idiots and I also pray they don't kill anybody with their stupidity.

Honestly I would think twice about shooting 50 rounds in training unless I had gone out by myself and practiced beforehand.
If my sisters ever asked me to take them pistol shooting I'dd start them with a 22 autoloader and then move up to a 1911GM with 45ACP target loads.

Back to the OP - Although they went a little overboard in this case, there's nothing wrong with being extra cautious with new untrained shooters. The poster may have good knowledge of firearms, but she shouldn't assume all the others do. You can't watch everyone at once and it's best to start training to the lowest common denominator which in this case, means the most untrained shooter in the room. It has nothing to do with gender, and everything to do with safety.

Also, there's nothing wrong with encouraging training with a .22. I've been shooting for 40 years and still do most of my training with a .22.

In fact, I'll go further - if you don't have a .22 (preferably one that mimics your carry gun), then you don't shoot enough to maintain the edge you need (I'll excuse anybody reloaders from that broad brush!).

That seems odd to me. My CCW class had about 20 students, half of which were women. The instructor treated everyone as equals, answered all questions respectfully and truthfully, and made getting my CCW a breeze. I'm glad your class went better the second night.

One thing that would go a long way for a man or a woman who is fairly new to firearms would be taking a basic pistol safety course before taking a CWP class. Assuming that a male knows more or is less afraid or less likely to flinch is just dumb in the first place. I'm a guy and I have guy friends who don't even like being in the same room with guns.

My state doesn't require a class for concealed carry but the more training the better IMHO.

Have any of you all seen this same type of thing? Was I raised in a cave or is this attitude about women justified?

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It has been my experience that this attitude is justified.

Through my experiences in the use of firearms for hunting, competition, and professional use in the military, it has been consistently proven to me time and time again that females as a whole are generally less experienced with firearms.


Go to any public range on a crowded day, or any type of club competition, and you will find this to be true.

Does it matter?

No.

Let your actions speak for you.

MetalHead, I would (and do) start EVERYONE out with a .22, generally one of my Ruger mkIII target guns or a Henry levergun if they're more interested in rifles (I'm more of a handgun guy, rifle instruction from me involves the 4 rules and a directive to get better training for now).
But gender doesn't even matter, you start them with the pea-shooter and work up through the bucket-O-guns to what they like and can control well ... which generally means a compact or larger pistol in a duty caliber (9x19/.40s&w/.45acp) and does not mean some tiny gun with rudimentary sights and an absurdly short barrel.

Women don't need snubbies, dammit ... that's a gun you bring to a fistfight for a beginner, short revolvers and mouseguns are far more challenging for shooters of ANY level and ANY plumbing arrangement.

JoeSlomo, perhaps that is because they get treated in a manner that discourages further shooting beyond the minimum to qualify?
You should see the morons at the rental range I use when gun-shopping ... men, women, young and old most of the people there have awful muzzle control, don't know the difference between a Ruger and a Luger, and every damn one of them acts like I'm a jerk when I ask them to not point guns at me ... on the other hand the shooters at my conservation club (regardless of gender or age) are polite, knowledgeable, and safety-minded, because the first-time shooters and wannabe mall-ninjas have been weeded out by the requirement to commit to a club.

It hurts that you were treated that way by a female instructor, she certainly could have handled that better.
I'm female, and most times I'm treated better by other women, but then there aren't many other women around, so it's a small sample.
Generally, guys treat me like an idiot until they know me, I can't count the number of times I've been looking at a table of guns at a gunshow, for instance, and the guy wants to sell me one with a pink frame or something.

It's all a balance between caliber, weight, and the shooter. I have a GF that'll run the nastiest .357's through my N-frame, or .45's and 45 super loads in a 1911, but .38+p's in a model 36 or a SP101 makes her cringe and hand the gun back to me.

For her, I'm really thinking a 4" K-frame in .357 would have her the most effective novice shot I've ever seen. You know, not too heavy but still enough there to make a .357 livable everyday.