Illegal Shotgun Modification?

I've noticed a few of these threads, where people are thinking about dipping into NFA territory, or where people aren't sure what a specific modification might mean legally, so they ask... And then you've got 30 posters bashing them because the modification would turn the firearm into an NFA item and that's BAD. Why is everyone so quick to assume that it's going to be done illegally?

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Good point, really. I think perhaps what comes off as an assumption of unlawful intent is really just severe apprehension or concern, perhaps not well communicated. These rules are SO illogical and obtuse that most folks who aren't VERY familiar with them assume that there is some "good-enough is just ok" allowance where close counts -- or they simply misapply the terms, misremember the measurements, forget minor details, etc.

And a lot of folks will phrase their inquiries (or responses) similarly to the OP's: (Paraphrasing...) "Why SURELY this simple modification can't REALLY get me into any serious trouble. What's a 1/4" more or less? Why this gun is about the same size as other guns which are legal, so it must be legal too -- logically speaking," etc.

That makes some of us instinctively respond, "WOAH! FULL STOP! DO NOT PROCEED!" any time someone asks a question because the stakes are so very high for such meaningless and arbitrary malum prohibidum restrictions. We probably come off as edgy, accusatory, suspicious types -- when really we're just hyper vigilant because we know the stakes are high.

I don't disagree that the laws are arbitrary, pointless, and very confusing. I also advocate the advice of a legal and experienced manufacturer or dealer when getting involved in NFA, but as long as you make the right preparations (ie jump through the right hoops and pay the right people) then play all you want.

Personally I'm waiting for two things in this field... I'm waiting for one of the states' rights laws to be tested (by someone other than me) and I'm waiting for Florida to pass the same.

Buy one as an AOW and the tax stamp is $5.00.

Adding a PG is legal under federal law, as long as the length of the barrel is at least 18' and the overall length of the gun is at least 26'. You have to be 21 to buy a PG only shotgun from a gun dealer (FFL) though. I think it is fine for a sub-21 year old to install one though, under federal law.

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Actually I'm not sure that's the case.

The legal definition of a "shotgun" is that it is "designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder".

Putting a pistol grip on it breaks that definition regardless of overall length or barrel length.

This is why you can buy PGO's from dealers but they are not considered "shotguns". They are simply "firearms" and you must be 21 to purchase rather than 18.

Be very careful with any of this stuff, the legal precedents are few and ATF has been known to make it up as they go.

Personally I'm waiting for two things in this field... I'm waiting for one of the states' rights laws to be tested (by someone other than me) and I'm waiting for Florida to pass the same.

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Remember two things about that:

1) These laws are generally written to say that the item must have it's origin in the state and not ever leave the state for this to apply, to get away from the commerce clause -- which leaves your options pretty limited, unless the gun you want to make/modify is actually created in your state. Which parts must be from your home state? What percentage must be? Just the receiver? These and other questions are untested -- because the laws themsleves are untested and...

2) It's going to be a long, uncomfortable ride for the first few (or more than few) test-case "volunteers" -- with an almost certain bad outcome. I may (happily) be quite wrong about that, but I'd say we nearly have the same chances of seeing the repeal of the Hughes Amendment as we do of SCOTUS agreeing that states can allow individuals to flout federal criminal law by claiming that commerce is not affected.

Remember two things about that:

1) These laws are generally written to say that the item must have it's origin in the state and not ever leave the state for this to apply, to get away from the commerce clause -- which leaves your options pretty limited, unless the gun you want to make/modify is actually created in your state. Which parts must be from your home state? What percentage must be? Just the receiver? These and other questions are untested -- because the laws themsleves are untested and...

2) It's going to be a long, uncomfortable ride for the first few (or more than few) test-case "volunteers" -- with an almost certain bad outcome. I may (happily) be quite wrong about that, but I'd say we nearly have the same chances of seeing the repeal of the Hughes Amendment as we do of SCOTUS agreeing that states can allow individuals to flout federal criminal law by claiming that commerce is not affected.

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My options won't really be all that limited... I don't plan on selling my "new toy" whenever it happens, and as far as fabricating parts here, I'm acquainted with several machinists and gunsmiths locally.

I'll let a few cases go by and see how they go before I decide to embark on anything in that area of course.

I'm not sure why anyone correctable to 20/20 would want such a gun, but hey, if it's done legal, go for it. Me, I'll keep carrying my 9mm.

I think it's more the novelty of the thing. I know I'd love to have a 12ga pistol.

FuzzyTGF said:

I think it's more the novelty of the thing. I know I'd love to have a 12ga pistol.

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Cabela's="Howdah" (black powder)

^^^^
Wow...that's something else. A 20 gauge pistol...


Lot less kick than I would have figured:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIjbOYwNov8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q5opsHjXuA&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_RAqtse42E&feature=related

http://www.cabelas.com/p-0058399.shtml

It's blackpowder... not what I am looking for.

Sure it's a relatively similar compromise, but I still want a 12ga pistol that fires modern 12ga shells not a 20ga blackpowder pistol.

FuzzyTGF said:

It's blackpowder... not what I am looking for.

Sure it's a relatively similar compromise, but I still want a 12ga pistol that fires modern 12ga shells not a 20ga blackpowder pistol.

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Here ya go:

http://www.teelgun.com/shotgun pistol.htm

That's more like it Thanks, envelope is filled out and just waiting on a stamp. I hope the guy is still in business!

FuzzyTGF said:

That's more like it Thanks, envelope is filled out and just waiting on a stamp. I hope the guy is still in business!

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If you get one of those things, post some vids of you shooting it. At the very least post your review!

Don't know if you saw it, but he has more info at the main section of his site:
http://www.teelgun.com/

Apparently he makes some other oddities as well (pen gun, cane gun) and other stuff. Needs some work on the site though...

No doubt. The manufacturer recommends 2" or 1" LEO shells... I'll see how it goes. Should know something more in the next week or so, judging by speed of mail.

Hmmm... his updates seem to be from 2003. No idea if he's managed to sell any (or any of his other oddities) but take note that he mentions that they ARE NFA Title II firearms -as are cane- and pen-guns. All versions of "Any Other Weapons" requiring a $200 tax stamp to make or a $5 tax stamp to transfer.

Interesting, to say the least!

The NFA status of the items is noted, and I'm aware of the requirements to purchase.

I also noticed that his updates are old. That's why I mailed out the letter, I'm curious to find out if he's still in business. If he's not, it's possible he may have a contact for me to find what I'm looking for. (this is assuming the address is even good )

FuzzyTGF said:

The NFA status of the items is noted, and I'm aware of the requirements to purchase.

I also noticed that his updates are old. That's why I mailed out the letter, I'm curious to find out if he's still in business. If he's not, it's possible he may have a contact for me to find what I'm looking for. (this is assuming the address is even good )

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From his site:

If you need to reach me immediately you can call (612) 825-6468 anytime from 9:30 AM - 4:30 PM CST. Thanks!

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Might save you the stamp...assuming that number is still in service.

And his email is listed as:
[email protected]

Thanks, I didn't notice the phone number.

*On Edit: The phone number is good, however I got no answer at this time. I will try again later and keep you updated. He has a few other items in his list that I'd be interested in too.

Why not a 3.5" 10 guage? They are around, ya know. Think of it, 18 pellets of triple naught.

I didn't know they were available, but yeah 12ga due to ammunition commonality and availability. Tough to find 10ga shells here, and I don't usually care to purchase ammo online.

Why?

Please note that a shotgun pistol doesn't do what you want it to.

What we all wish for - that the 00 buck will spread out to at least trash-can-lid size and disintegrate zombies and bad guys - won't happen. At pistol-engagement distances, the buckshot won't spread appreciably. Firing a slug might be better than buckshot.

A shotgun pistol is harder to aim than a normal pistol. It'll be harder to get second shot on target. It'll be harder to conceal than a pistol. It'll carry fewer shells. It won't be any fun to shoot. You won't want to practice with it. You'll never be comfortable relying on it as your primary self-defense tool.

Now, I concur that it would look cool and owning one is a basic human right. If you are a law student and want practice, have at the forms. If you are rich, somebody will take your money and get you squared away. If you are a regular person and your concerns are practical, don't bother.

If you are a regular person and your concerns are practical, don't bother.

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Now why would you want to bring practicality into this. We're talking about hand cannons and boom sticks here, not practicality.




All kidding aside, good points Mana.

England

I have always wondered how common sawed off shotguns are in England or Australia where pistols are hard to acquire. What is the ratio of SBS/illegal pistols among the criminal class. Any English members care to weigh in?

I have always wondered how common sawed off shotguns are in England or Australia where pistols are hard to acquire. What is the ratio off SBS/illegal pistols among the criminal class. Any English members care to weigh in?

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Interesting question, except that pistols aren't any harder to aquire for criminals than long guns, even/especially in the more repressive parts of the world. They're just harder (or impossible) for regular, law-abiding types to get.