10mm vs Bear

I've hunted bear on several occasions and never needed my backup gun, but I wouldn't want to have just a 10millimeter. I carry a .44 mag and wouldn't trust anything less. Some guys carry .357's and a guy we stayed with carries a Desert Eagle .50 ae. A ten millimeter just isnt enough

"Get the bear spray! Bear spray!" she kept yelling. The spray was in Nord's backpack.

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Yep, keeping your immediate action life saving equipment in the pack is real smart.

"Fetal position! Fetal position," Elliott yelled at her fiance's best friend, whom she had only recently met.

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Sure rather she had said, "DUCK, I'M GONNA SHOOT".

Oh, well those nature lovers really don't respect the wild.

Gang, in Grizzly country, carry a big gun. A Mossie 12 guage 500 don't weigh much and sabot slugs are easy to find.

Deaf

A Mossie 12 guage 500 don't weigh much and sabot slugs are easy to find.

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A Marlin 1895 .45/70 is just as light & handy but with proper loads is far more effective on stuff that bites back. Slugs are good for deer but not much else.

Common belief, here in the Northwest, is that full house (not the wimpy FBI lite, Remchesteral loads which are nothing else than glorified 40 S&W) 10mm loads, especially with hard cast bullets, can be adequate for a small black bear/cougar, the most "common" potential dangerous encounter you can have hiking around on this side of the country...I personally own a S&W 1006.

Brown Bears it's a very different story....you may kill it or scare it off with a ten (you know, the trite 'The largest Grizzly has been killed with a 22" expression) however, in that case, I would not rely on anything below a long barreled 44 Mag revolver loaded with 300+ g. hardcast bullets (again full house loads like the ones coming from Buffalo Bore or Double Tap not the light Remchesterals).

With Bear, for defense, not hunting, penetration is the key. Penetration into a central nervous system branch-brain or spine. In theory a heavy 10mm slug can do this, it is a great penetrating round. A hard cast 200gr FP should do the job. Lots of folk are touting a max load of something bigger because it IS hotter, but maybe not so good on repeat shots. Bear have been STOPPED with the lowly 30-30, and even weaker rounds. Of course the 30-30 is better than any handgun round-if it has the right bullet.
One must remember that the Bear might be a 800 pound critter moving at 35 MPH, humping and swaying all over the place. How do I know? Been there, done that. Bear when attacking have a very annoying habit of throwing their head back as they charge, thus not giving one a clear shot at the brain pan. Yeah you can shoot them through the mouth into the brain, but it is much better to get a solid hit on the front top of the head.
It takes a cool head and a steady hand to stop a Bear, that is Mister Bear to all of us.
If a 10 mm was all I had,I would have it loaded with minimum 200 gr flat point FMJ or hard cast bullets, with 225 being better. However I would really want my 45/70 or .458, even a 12 gauge with hard slugs is better than any handgun.
I have just finished deconstructing a Browning BPS 10 gauge 3.5" magnum, 19" barrel, open choke, rifle sights, and 1.5 oz hard cast slugs, it might do the job, or it might launch me out of Bear range.

Bear spray really isn't a bad option

Consider that both bear spary and pistols are deployed at the same range

bear spray doesn't have to have energy to penetrate
you don't have to hit a 1" target with a less than .5" round at 30'
you don't have to worry about the rest of your party that is scattered and running

all you have to worry about is bringing it into action and the wind
The rest washes off

OH and you don't have to kill a week and lug a bear out of the woods to explain what happened to the Wildlife troopers.

Bears or +P? Which gets asked more often?

Bears made #42 on my list of 100 FAQs on gun discussion forums.

Handgun for bear defense?

42. The odds on being attacked by a bear are very remote. But if you are so unfortunate as to experience an attack by a large bear there is no handgun that would be 100% satisfactory. If discussing the truly big bears, like the grizzly and the polar bear, if all you have is a pistol when attacked, you will need a tremendous amount of luck or divine intervention to survive the encounter. If you simply cannot carry a long gun of sufficient power, then pack the most powerful handgun you can effectively use and pray for God’s help if attacked.

Most of the posts tend to get off topic with their answers and if you are not a bow hunter you might not quite understand how a bear encounter would play out...Bow hunters are a quiet bunch with even a twig snapping to be rare...IF?...you did have a bear encounter it would probably be very close, very sudden and require some skill to survive...I hunt elk in Grizzly country and I thought about a G20 as well but since I was all set up for 45acp I just figured my G21 or XD in 45acp would do...Your not gonna be shooting as if you were hunting bear and range was needed...You would be shooting at several feet or less if you encountered a bear while bow hunting...I went to the bigger hole and round capacity theory...Bears die slow so the more holes the better...My wife's a nurse and has had a couple survivors in to be stitched up and their always chewed up from head to toe so you might have to offer your left arm while the right arm is putting rounds into a sweet spot...I'll take 13 rounds of 10mm or 45acp at point blank range any day over a so called bear cartridge in a revolver...

A Marlin 1895 .45/70 is just as light & handy but with proper loads is far more effective on stuff that bites back. Slugs are good for deer but not much else.

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CraigC,

Winchester 12 ga. "Supreme Elite Dual Bond 375gr sabot slugs:

50 yard velocity of 1628 fps, and 2206 fp of energy.

My guess is a .45/70 Marlin with throw a 400 gr. slug about at 1800 fps from the muzzle. That is not much more than the Winchester load especially since the 1628 was from 50 yards.

So I don't see much difference. If there is, please explain.

Deaf

Read this very good description of a bear attack that occurred several days ago. They managed to do just about everything wrong (ran from the bear, had the pepper spray buried in a pack), yet still managed to save themselves by eventually deploying some pepper spray.

http://www.adn.com/2010/07/08/135949...s-tale-of.html

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My wife works with the woman in the article. They had her pesonal account of the attack and a few interesting pictures on the internal company intranet.

I have spoken with a guide up in AK that killed a brown bear with a Glock 20 when it surprised him late at night, so I think it will be OK for the black bear pictured as long as shot placement is good.

So I don't see much difference. If there is, please explain.

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Those slugs are intended for deer. It's a saboted, jacketed hollowpoint pistol bullet designed for expansion and has a very poor sectonal density (.219 vs .272 for a 400gr .45/70). The hardcast .458 will break heavy bones and penetrate like a freight train, the "slug".....won't.

...I'll take 13 rounds of 10mm or 45acp at point blank range any day over a so called bear cartridge in a revolver...

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How many chances do you really think you're gonna get???

Several hikers here in WA are seeing black bears on their hikes, including sows with cubs, and they (the bears) always run away. A black bear is usually only going to attack if it has cubs and if it's trapped, or you're between her and her cubs. In other words, it's going to take a very rare set of circumstances for you to find yourself attacked by a black bear. If the stars align in just such a way that a sow attacks, it will be very sudden and very violent.

I still (open) carry my G20SF when I hike alone or in a small group. Our large group hikes make so much noise there's hardly even a bird anywhere to be seen. Anyway, black bears are not a "shoot on sight" animal. I hope I'm never in a position to need the 10mm, but it's nice to know it's there and quickly accessible.

Slugs are good for deer but not much else.

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Only good for deer,really? Fosters and sabots maybe but Brennekes are more than enough for bear.

We're looking at a 438gr .72 inch solid slug going at around 1600fps.

Even a Foster slug weighs an ounce and is traveling at 1500 fps. That's close to the same velocity as the heaviest Buffalo Bore .45/70, but twice the weight and more than 50% larger in diameter!

ANY shotgun slug is plenty for bear.

Look at the pitiful sectional densities of those slugs and get back to me. As I said in another thread:

"This is true but even the best of slugs like those from Dixie, still have a very poor sectional density. Their 730gr is still only .196, which is only slightly higher than a 250gr .44 Keith bullet and still less than a 270gr. Their massive 870gr slug is only .233, or equal to a 300gr .44 bullet. To put things in perspective, a 400gr .458" bullet has a sectional density of .272, the aforementioned 355gr .44 is .274 and a 430gr .475 is .272. The well-proven 400gr .416 runs a mighty .330 and the venerable 500gr .458 runs .341.

Now think again about those 1 3/8oz Brenneke slugs at 600gr and an SD of .161. Then think of how pitiful your average 1oz slug is at 438gr and an SD of .117.

So looking at actual data, rather than relying on the oft-repeated "myth" that the 12ga slug is a good bear-stopper, it stands to reason that a feller would be FAR better off with a blackpowder equivalent .45-70 with a real 500gr hardcast bullet than any 12ga slug. Better still, make it a 400-500gr LBT of proper hardness at 1600-2000fps. Not bad considering the various Marlin .45/70's available for under $600."

We're looking at a 438gr .72 inch solid slug going at around 1600fps.

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As above, your one ounce slug has a sectional density less than a 110gr .357 or 135gr .40S&W. Which both, by the way, make wonderful varmint loads.

So looking at actual data, rather than relying on the oft-repeated "myth" that the 12ga slug is a good bear-stopper, it stands to reason that a feller would be FAR better off with a blackpowder equivalent .45-70 with a real 500gr hardcast bullet than any 12ga slug.

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We're not talking about hunting, so I don't care about sectional density. I care about delivering a large and accurate wallop at close range with a warning of one or two seconds.
I own a Guide Gun, and I own a number of shotguns. I feel well armed with either, but I know that I can put a slug on a small target (a bears nose) faster with a shotgun than I can with my Guide Gun.

If I was hunting bears, I'd choose a heavy bolt action rifle - my .350 Rem Mag.

As above, your one ounce slug has a sectional density less than a 110gr .357 or 135gr .40S&W. Which both, by the way, make wonderful varmint loads.

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When did sectional density become the new "it" thing? Are you seriously telling me that a 1 ounce brenneke slug doesnt penetrate as well as a 110gr 357magnum? My god man have you ever fired either one of these? A 110 gr 357 bullet is a fragile near frangible bullet, you can pretty much stop them in a couple gallon jugs of water. When i tried to stop a brenneke slug, i literally couldnt. I gave up after i tried to stop it with multiple water jugs, a couple pieces of plywood and a 24inch round of knotty bull pine. It went thru all of this,all.

Fact carries more weight than theory, as anything can be theoretically fantastic but has to be proven before it can actually be trusted. Sectional Density basically says that small heavy projectiles are just the greatest thing ever and has nothing to do with how fast this projectile is going nor bullet construction. So basically a 3/8 piece of rebar 20 ft long weighing 3lbs sitting on the ground is considered more lethal than a 12 gauge slug going 1600fps. This is insane.

Many many many many bear have been stopped by a 12 gauge slug and its very much not a varmint round. It is a fine round to defend yourself againt bear.

How many aimed shots are you going to get off with that magnum revolver?

Lets get two guys together.
One with a 4 inch .44 mag loaded with 6 300gr. bullets
The other with a Glock 20 loaded with 15 230gr. bullets

At the buzzer lets see who can get more rounds on a charging bear target in the same amount of time.

My money is on the 10mm.

There's an old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight. Well, bringing a handgun to a bear fight is an equally bad idea.

Since no one can see into the future regarding if or when they may need to defend themselves, its easier to always have a handgun on your person than it is to carry a rifle around with you.

Since no one can see into the future regarding if or when they may need to defend themselves, its easier to always have a handgun on your person than it is to carry a rifle around with you.

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If you're in bear country, you should carry something that will protect you from bears. I'd far prefer to have a can of pepper spray than a handgun in my zip code. One will make the bear angry and the other will make him leave.

KodiakBeer said:

There's an old saying about bringing a knife to a gun fight. Well, bringing a handgun to a bear fight is an equally bad idea.

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This is true, if i knew for a fact i was going to be facing an angry bear i would use artillery or a minigun, or more realistically not be there at that time but since i cant always tote about my 12 gauge i use a Blackhawk 45colt loaded with Buffalo Bore 325gr HC.

Rifles/shotguns are better than handguns for nearly everything though.

KodiakBeer said:

If you're in bear country, you should carry something that will protect you from bears. I'd far prefer to have a can of pepper spray than a handgun in my zip code. One will make the bear angry and the other will make him leave.

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Yeah but you're in Alaska where the bear are about 6 times the size of the average Black Bear from where im at (north idaho)