defensive load for an apt

6 or 7.5 shot in the lowest brass you can get.
Perhaps even 8 shot, depending on how close or far the farthest shot may be.
If most shots would be within 10 feet, I would not hesitate to go with 8 shot.
Go shoot an old door or pile of phone books and see for yourself the damage small shot will inflict at close range. You will easily blow a 4" or more diamter hole through a door and through several phone books (depending on thickness, of course).

Sometimes a topic is so ... popular ... that a collection of supporting quotes might answer it well:

Please read this link: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=109958&start=0
It will settle the "isn't birdshot just GREAT for home defense?" question.

And some pertinent quotes from other recent threads: (Some mine, some borrowed.)

"Any projectile fired from a firearm that is capable of reliably stopping an attacker is *also* capable of penetrating a few sheets of dry-wall. Any projectile that will NOT penetrate dry-wal will NOT consistenly penetrate deeply enough in a human body to reliably stop an attacker."

"Sorry, that's just the way it is. If it will go deep enough to have a good chance of stopping the bad guy, it will penetrate dry wall. If if won't penetrate dry wall, it won't reliably go deep enough to stop a determined attacker."

"Rounds that don't punch through walls like paper are also only marginally better than pepper spray. #8 shot will certainly ruin a burglar's evening, but the second that 'burglar' turns into 'attacker,' #8 will have to be used at near point-blank, or will otherwise have two very specific effects: jack and squat."

"Birdshot is for birds. Penetration on a clothed, human attacker, who probably won't give you a squared up shot anyway, will probably have arms and other items in front of his vitals, and who may be wearing a leather jacket and/or multiple layers of clothing is NOT sufficient to count on to halt an attack."

"Sure, getting shot --at all-- is a bad and disheartening thing, but not all violent aggressors are wired to give up at the first shot (many have been shot before and lived to attack again), and those who've altered their mental state with various chemicals might not even register a small-caliber wound or 20."

'If you use a shotgun for defense, choose your rounds wisely. Go with something that can penetrate far enough to do the kind of damage required to shut the systems down."

"Accept the fact that this means they're going to penetrate building materials too. That's just physics. And also realize that even 00 buck shot, individually, are horribly inferior to any common defensive pistol bullet from the perspective of penetration and energy. You're counting on multiple hits to have a cumulative effect, but it may only be one projectile that really hits a vital mark. Make it a big one that has the chance to get there and do its job."

Etc.

[Exceptions to some of the above statements have been largely proved true in the case of high-velocity small-caliber rifle cartridges. However, low-weight, moderate-velocity spherical projectiles are right out.]

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T shot or 4 buck and even then I wouldn't be terribly confident about it.



birdshot is ineffective against a truly determined, hearty or amped up attacker. go with the number 4 buck and practice extensively and pattern extensively to remain as sharp and accurate as possible.

Lighter buck loads would be somewhat better than 3" 000 buck loads - use a tighter choke if you're worried about pellets missing their target and going through the walls.......OR......just a thought - get the training necessary so all of your shots go COM

exactly like oneounce said...it'll be better than a full house load but its still not anything to be blowing off wildly in an apartment...train!

Buy yourself a case of Remington Express #2 (.15) Shot. This is in a class that used to be referred to as Swan Shot and is effective at the ranges you'd be using it at (more likely to be 15 feet than yards) but will not over-penetrate obstacles. Click pic below. Anything bigger is much bigger Buckshot (though #4 Buck could be considered) and anything smaller, even .12 #4 Shot, is starting to push your luck...
Al

There is no load that will not 'overpenetrate' and that is also an effective and reliable man-stopper. I would not choose any birdshot load, and I would select a buckshot load that gave the tightest pattern in my gun at likely engagement ranges.

rbernie - while I generally agree with you, someone taking one of those waterfowl loads at HD distances of 15-20 FEET will probably accomplish the task at hand for the most part

JMO since I stopped hunting waterfowl when lead was banned, but i remember some lead #2 goose loads that might stop an intrusion.........ya never know

irishelcid said:

I am not worried about hitting the target COM, I have the training.

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Unless you've woken up suddenly in the middle of the night, ID'd an intruder, and landed a shot, I wouldn't be that certain about how such an engagement might go.

One nice thing about shotguns is the range of ammunition and the ability to switch between them quickly. When I lived an apartment I was strictly loading #8 shot. My longest shot was about 10 feet. Now that I've got a 2 story house might work my way down the hallway (most likely shot there has kids bedrooms as a backdrop) with birdshot and switch to buck on my way down the stairs.

One thing people often don't get is that ALL ammo will make it thru an interior wall. It's just a question of how much damage will it do on the other side.

Those Tazer shells for 12-gauge shotguns might be an option once they start selling them to the public.

Federal buck, has nice tight patters for me. I'd use that and know your angles. i.e. what is on the other side of the wall. For me it is firewall, ocean/parking lot, exterior wall, hallway, usually empty apartment, firewall. I don't mind shooting buck into a bad guy with a solid wall or parking lot behind him, so my shotgun is stored, with buckshot, in a convenient place where the most likely shot at a burglar would be in front of an exterior wall.

Everyone has an opinion and that is for sure.
All I will do is relate a story that I have mentioned before on this site.
A few years ago during Dove season a couple of the guys left the deer camp to get in some early morning dove hunting.
They walked off and about one minute later I heard two very quick shotgun blasts.
The guy doing the shooting returned for the jeep and mentioned that he had killed two hogs.
He was armed with an old Ithaca model 37 pump 20 gauge loaded with low base Remington #8 dove load.
The hogs had ran out across the ranch road and at a distance of less than 20 feet and he got off two fast shots and killed both hogs dead as a hammer!!
And these were not little shoats.
When I asked what type of shot he had used and was told I was absolutely dumbfounded that such puny shot could do that.
My friend casually mentioned that at that distance the shot had not even gotten out of it's wad.
So at that point it made perfect sense to me.
And it also gave me a very good lesson on just how effective a shotgun in practically any gauge really is.
Anyone who has hunted feral hogs knows good and well how tough these creatures are.
Moral of the story...Although I would not choose #8 shot as my defensive household load but on the other hand do not think for one minute that this would be incapable of stopping a man.

Federal buck, has nice tight patters for me. I'd use that and know your angles. i.e. what is on the other side of the wall.

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Yeah... like you're going to be thinking about angles and whats behind where when your life is at stake. My choice for my daughters apt is #4 Buck. Aim at he middle and worry about the aftermath later at least you'll be alive. Odds are, your gunfight isn't going to happen the way you planned.

Those Tazer shells for 12-gauge shotguns might be an option once they start selling them to the public.

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lol. wrong.

Irishelcid, I'm with Al LaVodka - I want something a bit smaller than #4 buck and bigger than #4 birdshot. I have #2 birdshot as the first up in my house gun. IMHO, the Heavi-Shot should get you what you want. The 2 3/4 goose loads are at the bottom of the chart.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20726-cat20841&id=0063863216428a&navCount=3&podId=0063863&parentId=cat20841&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20841&hasJS=true

This spring a bud killed a good sized deer while rabbit hunting. He used #6 shot and the deer was nearly 100 feet away. I would not have thought it possible but it happened--I helped him process it. #8 shot at ten feet will mess up anyone's plans of attacking you. I keep OO in the tactical and #6 in the other. The last two in the 500 are OO and I keep more in the sidesaddle. The #6 is for farm use and the last two, well.

Al Thompson said:

Irishelcid, I'm with Al LaVodka - I want something a bit smaller than #4 buck and bigger than #4 birdshot. I have #2 birdshot as the first up in my house gun. IMHO, the Heavi-Shot should get you what you want. The 2 3/4 goose loads are at the bottom of the chart.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat20726-cat20841&id=0063863216428a&navCount=3&podId=0063863&parentId=cat20841&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=9IS&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat20841&hasJS=true

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Al;
I personally prefer BB Shot (.18) as the go-to HD load, and have some, but loaded lead isn't available anymore and I'm not paying for Heavi-Shot. OK, maybe our OP could buy a case of Rem. #2 for practice and back-up but a box of BB Heavi-Shot HD for his primary defense load -- I'm good with that.
The other Al

IMHO: It's just a stupid argument.
You take on a responsibility when you decide to use deadly force, and part of that responsibility is not hurting others.
Using such a dangerous tool will obviously have risks. One of those risks is striking anything other than your intended target.

Thus, at the risk of being a little trite, it all comes down to not missing.

There is no wonder load.

According to the "highly scientific" testing I've seen (shooting watermelons and mock-ups of double-sided sheetrock walls at across-room distances), you definitely want birdshot (probably smaller than #6) and definitely do not want buckshot.

This question's just impossible to answer to everyone's satisfaction. If I have to use a firearm to stop a determined attacker, (300 lb lunatic on ice, coke, or amphetamines) birdshot of ANY size just will not suffice. An attacker like that may not stop until the last drop of blood has left their body, especially if they've been shot and are now desperately motivated to kill you.

I fully agree that concern for neighbors is very important, but do I want to let that concern bar me from arming myself properly?

I don't plan to ever even THINK of grabbing my gun unless the situation is worst case scenario and if I don't act with force, I or someone I love will die.

The penetration that birdshot gives is just not enough to ensure a hit to a vital structure.

An attacker is never going to stand upright and give you a clear shot at center mass. If an attacker is leaning toward you in a lunge position, 4 inches of penetration is not going to reach a vital area if you hit the torso.

This is a tough debate, but I'd rather be adequately armed IF I need a firearm to solve the problem, than to go for my gun in a last ditch attempt to save my life and only further enrage a lunatic that is already out of his mind and fully fueled with chemicals that make the brain keep functioning until it is forcefully shut off.

I'd load no smaller than #1 buck.

Purgatory said:

The penetration that birdshot gives is just not enough to ensure a hit to a vital structure.

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Purgatory;
4" of penetration? Obviously, you are incorrect if you are referring to BB Shot if not #2 too.
Al

I'm referring to anything lighter than what is certainly effective. Regardless of the exact depth that may be achieved in any of a number of infinite scenarios, I, personally, would rather use what WILL work as opposed to what MIGHT work.