.308 is $.37 a round @ AIM surplus

Wow ... anybody know if this is quality stuff? Safe for an m1a?

How's it compare to say http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A308RG

Isn't de-linking the rounds a bit of a PITA?

Hirtenberger is generally well regarded among the few people I know who've shot it

since its on an m60 link, does that mean its to hot for a rifle? RC?

I have been told that machine gun ammo tends to be loaded hotter, is this true for 7.62x51?

AIM also has German ammo for $10 more, thats some excellent stuff!

Thanks for the heads up, however it's a little too late, I just received my (approx) $89 200 round German pack of ammo today.

I liked the delinking video, nice music to go with it

Hatterasguy said:

I have been told that machine gun ammo tends to be loaded hotter, is this true for 7.62x51?

AIM also has German ammo for $10 more, thats some excellent stuff!

Click to expand...

I was just thinkin the same thing. $.425/rd doesn't seem too bad.

I really like it! I put 400 rounds down range and it's super clean, and accurite! Plus it comes in green rubber battle packs for easy storage!

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?item=A308DAG&groupid=26

so yeah about this hirtenberger.....is it any different than the hirt we used to get? i.e. loaded hotter or what. 1000 rounds for $375 seems like a good deal to me provided they don't kill you on shipping

If I'm not mistaken, true .308 is loaded hotter than standard 7.62x51. That said, I dont know much else about if this stuff is hotter or not.

Click to expand...

yup, this is true. .308 Win max is 62,000psi, 7.62x51 is 50,000 psi.

Yep .37 cents until you factor in shipping which to my address was an addition 13.37

Brings price up to 46 cents a round. Still a pretty good price but that extra $13 represents a 16.5% increase over the 37 cent/round price. Not an inconsequential change. At least for me.

Milsurp 7.62X51 around here runs just about that. last month at a local military surplus store I saw some Czech stuff going for a quarter a round. Guy couldn't give it away. It was corrosive - who ever heard of corrosive 7.62X51 NATO? Hell - whoever heard of Czech 7.62X51 NATO - they a member of NATO now?

Yes, The Czech Republic joined NATO in March 1999.

Looks like the same stuff as the German on AIM ... reviews mixed.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=945421

If I'm not mistaken, true .308 is loaded hotter than standard 7.62x51.

Click to expand...

yup, this is true. .308 Win max is 62,000psi, 7.62x51 is 50,000 psi.

Click to expand...

NOOOOOOO It's NOT true.

Please everyone STOP saying that. It's not true. Not even remotely close to true.

They are NOT both measured in PSI. One is in CUP, one in PSI, and there is no formula to translate. There ARE correlation tables between them and it turns out that the 2 loadings are BASICALLY IDENTICAL in pressures.

Please stop spreading this BS, it's caused untold grief and worry and it has NO truth to it whatsoever.

Several folks have posted the proof of all of this hundreds of times here on THR and other places and it STILL comes up in every single .308 thread :banghead:

yup, this is true. .308 Win max is 62,000psi, 7.62x51 is 50,000 psi.

Click to expand...

N-O

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
If you really believe this then feel free to sent me all your 308 ammo, I'll take good care of it (like fire it out of my 7.62x51 guns)

There should be a sticky about this.

I have been told that machine gun ammo tends to be loaded hotter, is this true for 7.62x51?

Click to expand...

M80 ball is M80 ball. It is a standard throughout NATO. There is no difference between the cartridges supplied singly for the M14, FAL, G3, et al, and those linked for the M60, M240b, etc.

More information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x51mm_NATO

The 7.62x51mm NATO (official NATO nomenclature 7.62 NATO) is a rifle cartridge developed in the 1950s as a standard for small arms among NATO countries. When loaded with a bullet design that expands, tumbles, or fragments in tissue, this cartridge is capable of delivering devastating terminal performance, including remote wounding effects known as hydrostatic shock.[6][7][8]

It was introduced in U.S. service in the M14 rifle and M60 machine gun in the late 1950s. The M14 was superseded in U.S. service as the infantry adopted the 5.56x45mm NATO M16. However, the M14 and many other firearms that use the 7.62×51 round remain in service, especially in the case of sniper rifles and machine guns. The cartridge is used both by infantry and on mounted and crew-served weapons mounted to vehicles, aircraft and ships.

Click to expand...

Also note at the tail of the Wikipedia article the listing of 7.62 NATO loadings. None of them specify machine gun vs. rifle loadings.

.308 with a NATO headstamp - circle with a cross in it - is identical to commercially loaded .308. Military .308 uses primers that are harder than typical commercial made .308 for use in non-military applications. Why? So it can be linked and fired out of a MG. Soft primers in an MG can lead to primers going off prior to the cartridge being fully seated in the chamber.

ok, thanks for the clarification. i'll add that to the brain data base. sorry to have misled.

TexasRifleman said:

Please everyone STOP saying that. It's not true. Not even remotely close to true.

They are NOT both measured in PSI. One is in CUP, one in PSI, and there is no formula to translate. There ARE correlation tables between them and it turns out that the 2 loadings are BASICALLY IDENTICAL in pressures.

Click to expand...

I've perpetuated this misinformation myself. Has anyone ever done a PSI test for both? Where can we find the correlation tables? Thanks.

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2006/308vs762nato/index.asp

Anything wrong in this article?

In terms of pressure, there is a wide (very wide) gap between the 7.62 NATO and the .308 Winchester. Here at Surplusrifle.com, we recommend in the strongest possible terms that you do not fire factory .308 Winchester ammunition in any Mil-Surp rifle chambered for the 7.62 NATO round.

Click to expand...

SAAMI (Sporting arms and ammunition institute) - the official purveyor of specs regarding ammunition and firearm design specs disagrees. .308 and 7.62X51 NATO are completely interchangeable.

See this SAAMI document to verify: http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_211-Unsafe_Arms_and_Ammunition_Combinations.pdf

Keep in mind that old rifles should be thoroughly inspected before shooting, and that each rifle is unique as to what loads it will handle. A person that reloads using .308 brass; should stick to the bottom loads from their current loading manual. The bottom load has reduced pressures, and is usually more accurate anyway. That load should also be crosschecked against at least 2 other current loading manuals.

Click to expand...

Any old rifle should be inspected to make sure it is safe to shoot. Good advice but irrelevant to any discussion re: shooting .308 out of a NATO chamber or vice versa.

RE: reloading - a safety conscious reloader always starts at the bottom and works his way up. Again - good advice but irrelevant to any discussion of whether or not .308 Win and 7.62X51 are interchangeable.

They are. SAAMI says so and I believe them. It is the industry standards setter afterall.

I've perpetuated this misinformation myself. Has anyone ever done a PSI test for both? Where can we find the correlation tables? Thanks.

Click to expand...

Lots of research on this over the years. Here's a good summary.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

Do guns blow up from using the wrong ammo? Yes, but it's not pressure, it's headspace.

Specifically the Ishapores and Navy Garands have been known to have excessive headspace. This is the problem, not pressure.

I've found the issue to be confusing and I don't see clarity looming on the horizon.

The SAAMI specs of 62,000 psi for the .308 are shown as maximum average chamber pressure. This is approximately 430 mPa.

Mirex figures for 7.62 NATO show 344 mPa as average chamber pressure. Approx 50,000 PSI.

Cites abound for 7.62 NATO having a maximum chamber pressure of 415 mPa. Approx 60,000 PSI.

Cites of either in CUP seem relatively few and far between.

So what's the difference between "maximum average pressure", "average chamber pressure" and "maximum chamber pressure"?

I sure don't know but if SAAMI MAP is closer to MCP than ACP then the difference is small - 62 vs 60KPSI. If the comparison is between MAP and ACP than we get a stout difference: 62 vs 50KPSI. The former is piffle, the later worrisome.

Then there's that whole "go / no go" gauge thing.

What puzzles me is how everyone can be so sure. It's not like there isn't sufficient conflicting information on the issue to preclude a conclusion being drawn from perfunctory internet research.

'Course since I've got nothing chambered in .308 and/or 7.62 X 51 I've no dog in the fight.

Will it bend the op-rod on my 7.62x51 Garand if I shoot American Eagle in it?