origins of the pistol grip shotgun and intent?

Before the NFA, Ithaca sold one based on its SxS action, called the "Auto and Burglar." It had 12" barrels, or thereabouts. This is a factory gun:



The idea was already old before the 870 was on the drawing board. Post-NFA, the barrel of a PG shotgun had to be longer for regular over-the-counter sales, though. I believe that the NFA, then WW II, made the design uninteresting to most. Then, after WW II, it was revisited.

So, the real question isn't its origins, but rather what caused it to be brought back in new forms.

I assume you mean the type of pistol grip used on the AR-15 and similar rifles. For those rifles, there is a reason. The AR-15 was originally designed as a selective fire weapon, and a straight line stock was used to bring recoil straight back and minimize climb.

But a straight stock just won't work with a conventional grip (try it). So the logical thing was to adopt the pistol grip. Some writers say it is for firing from the hip, but that is nonsense; a regular stock (like the M14) is much better for that purpose (again, try it). But when firing from the shoulder, with a straight line stock the pistol grip is the best way to go.

The same would be true of the shotgun if it were being fired full auto or very rapidly from the shoulder. But shotguns are not often used that way, and there are very few full auto shotguns, even in police or military use.

So, basically, the pistol grip on a shotgun really serves to make the gun look "cool" and rather more "dangerous" than one with a conventional stock. Impressive, but without any real reason.

Jim

The goal was to reduce the overall length for concealment and storage.

I believe the original concept of a pistol grip only shotgun goes back to the flintlock muzzleloading days when horse pistols were large bored, i.e. 24 to 16 guage smoothbore pistols that could fire about anything that could be stuffed down the barrel as long as the shooter had a stash of blackpowder to fuel the charge.

The twin barrel gun became the next logical choice as two shots are better than one and the concept of a short barrelled scattergun has never since left the scene as THE devastating short range defense weapon.

My earliest recollection of a pistol grip shotgun (with a stock) would be the Ljutic Mono-gun (or Space Gun) used in high level Trap shooting, beginning in the 1950's early 60's?



http://www.fresnotrapandskeet.com/html/ljutic_pg__3.html

The intent was pretty much the same as the German assult rifles and LMG's of WWII.

Straight line stock & pistol grip designed to better control recoil during those long hard days at the trap range.

rc

So, basically, the pistol grip on a shotgun really serves to make the gun look "cool" and rather more "dangerous" than one with a conventional stock. Impressive, but without any real reason.

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I'd have to agree.

The goal was to reduce the overall length for concealment and storage.

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That was my reason.

Wow, that Ithaca SxS must have been absolutely brutal to shoot. The Feds must have figured that "sawed off shotguns" were exceptionally dangerous weapons in the hands of street thugs or something to include them in the ban.

The Ithaca shown above was in 20 gauge. Perhaps still not pleasant, but not the brutal pounding a 12 gauge would give a shooter.

Wow, that Ithaca SxS must have been absolutely brutal to shoot. The Feds must have figured that "sawed off shotguns" were exceptionally dangerous weapons in the hands of street thugs or something to include them in the ban.

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The NFA was pretty obviously anti-Italian and "anti-mafia-in-the-stupidest-possible-way." The Mafia liked sawed-off shotguns, because back then, they were the most cost-effective weapon that could be hidden under a coat. Double barrel shotguns were still fairly cheap back then, while big bore semi-autos were expensive (and much less powerful, anyway; even today, a .45 is less powerful than a sawed-off 12 gauge!). Most common handguns were relatively weak revolvers (the .357 mag didn't reach the market until slightly after the NFA was passed, IIRC), or small caliber autos (the original .380 ACPs were only a little bigger than a Glock 19, though much much slimmer), or older single- and double-shot derringers. Thus, sawed-off shotguns came to be associated with the mob (simply because they were the most size-efficient and cost-efficient firearm available back then), and were "regulated" (though more like a ban given how much money $200 was back in 1934) along with cut-down rifles, machine guns, and the original NFA attempted to ban all handguns period, too. The "all handguns" bit got thrown out, but the rest remains.

^^^

Makes sense to me.

Anyway I know from experience that really short barrelled 12 and 20 gauges don't have nearly as much recoil than you'd expect, a hot loaded big bore magnum revolver hits you much harder IMO.

Pistol grips were added by Newark street gangs to facilitate drive-by bayonet luggings.

This is why semi-autos with both are banned in New Jersey.

If I were to post the intent behind collapsible stocks and flash hiders I would probably get booted off the Forum.

I do not know if this is the intended use or not, but a pistol gripped shotgun can be held on your lap underneath a counter or a table. Also, it is much easier to conceal and quickly operate while wearing a trench coat or even baggy pants. It is also easier to handle if riding a motorcycle.

If I were to post the intent behind collapsible stocks and flash hiders I would probably get booted off the Forum.

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Flash hiders make the shot invisible, so you won't know you've been shot until somebody tells you you've got red on your shirt. Collapsible stocks are just plain dangerous cuz you'll get "Weatherby eye" when you shoot one. I got this direct from the ATF. In a pamphlet. That my cousin Larry told me about. I think...

Clyde Barrow (Bonnie & Clyde) would cut the stocks and barrels way down on some of his brownings so he could manuever with them in tight confined spaces...He called them his "whippit guns"...

I no longer have any pistol-grip only shotguns, but when I did, it was a Winchester Defender with double TactStar grips. It was fast handling and because recoil was spread between two grips instead of going primarily into the firing hand, it was manageable with buckshot. Firing from the hip was effective within 10 meters and you could put out quite a bit of lead very quickly. I sold it to my old roommate who, having come back from Germany after over a decade, didn't have a home defense gun.

Was it as easy to shoot at range? No. Was accuracy as good as a conventional-stocked shotgun? No. Does it offer a major advantage in concealment and compactness? Yes. That is why you have one. Currently, I have a Choate top-folder for my extra-compact shotgun, but the rest are either conventional or pistol grip full stocked guns.

I was under the impression that PGO shotguns were first marketed for armored car guards mainly for use through the gun ports.