45-70 for home defense

LOL i have a shotgun, but It's a hunting shotgun with a rifled barrel and a field barrel. Plus i'm better with my lever gun. I've always admired the wild west days, when you had one gun and one pistol and it was used from everything from home/ranch defense, gun battles with marauders, and bear and big game hunting.

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Most of those lever guns were chambered in the same cartridge as your pistol though. You also didn't have the same legal ramifications for collateral damage that you have today. Further, what many consider rural now, would have been an urban area back then.

If you must use a .45-70 for HD; please listen to the others, and load it with as lightly constructed bullets as possible. Perhaps someone has a link to test results of the Hornady LEVERevolution load, which, I'm taking a WAG, may be your best bet. With it's ballistic tip, it SHOULD (may or may not) have rapid expansion, which will minimize overpenetration.

I hope this hasn't been brought up, -I didn't catch it. What about the recoil of the .45-70 especially from a standing shot?

Wouldn't it make accurate follow-up shots very difficult and slow at best?

The Chuck Hawks Rifle Recoil Table shows the recoil almost equal to that of a .300 Weatherby Magnum. -And the lighter grain bullets show to recoil significantly harder than the heavier ones. Maybe light rounds ISN'T the way to go with it.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

I just personally cannot imagine clearing my home with a rifle with that kind of recoil. A shot across the yard, sure, but still at that range there's more chance of a miss under pressure and then you'd have to reacquire target, aim, fire, BOOOOM!!

Lol it's kind of entertaining to imagine. Maybe it'd be Great, I don't know.

stick some bp rounds in there so it acts as a smoke screen in the process

45-70 might be nice for home defense if you live in an extremely rural area, but any other place overpenetration concerns here are serious. If you haven't any money, the 45-70 just might have to serve. However, there are better alternatives:

(1) New or used short-barreled pump shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge
(2) Handgun in standard Calibers, 9mm/.38 or bigger is optimal
(3) Lever-action carbine in handgun calibers
(4) Semi-auto Carbine in handgun calibers
(5) Semi-auto rifle in either 5.56/.223 or 5.45X39

Lots of fun choices in the above weapons, some rather inexpensive, others less so. I used to own a single-shot 45-70 and it was a hoot, but it sits at the bottom of the list as a home-defense tool.

What about the recoil of the .45-70 especially from a standing shot?

Wouldn't it make accurate follow-up shots very difficult and slow at best?

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Actually, shooting from a rested position is much worse on the shoulder than shooting offhand. Shooting offhand really isn't bad at all.

It isn't the recoil that makes followup shots difficult because the issue of recoil is pretty much ancient history for most folks by the time they get the next round levered into the chamber. With considerable practice, one can lever rounds quite quickly and if you have learned to do that, then you likely have the experience of necessary for managing recoil and staying on target. There are a few Youtube videos that show folks who have mastered these aspects.

It is really no different that running 12 ga ammo through a pump gun. By the time you have cycled the pump, the recoil issue has passed.

I just personally cannot imagine clearing my home with a rifle with that kind of recoil. A shot across the yard, sure, but still at that range there's more chance of a miss under pressure and then you'd have to reacquire target, aim, fire, BOOOOM!!

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You know, out of my Marlin 1895, the BOOM really isn't that bad compared to some of my other long guns like AR15s, HK91s, etc.

A hand gun would "point" a whole lot faster and carry more rounds but to each his own.

I use an old former-police Wingmaster for HD, but now you have me scared that my shotgun won't be enough. What if the intruder is a cape buffalo?

Perhaps a surplus Panzerfaust???

What about the recoil of the .45-70 especially from a standing shot? [...] And the lighter grain bullets show to recoil significantly harder than the heavier ones.

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That is why you develop an appropriate "powderpuff" load for it. Light bullets (that are lightly constructed) are for lesser penetration, not to lessen recoil.

Offhand shooting a regular .45-70 (which is still effective at 1000 yards if you can hit the target), feels absolutely nothing like a .300 Weatherby, just like shooting a 12 Gauge bird gun feels nothing like a .300 Weatherby. Slow, very heavy rounds recoil differently from very fast, medium weight rounds.

Regular .45-70 would be something like a 405 grain RNFP lead bullet going 1400 fps. It will drop a very large game animal with no expansion required. The recoil is brutal from the bench, but no big deal standing.

People like Tim Sundles (Buffalo Bore) have loaded Express Rifle spec rounds in .45-70 cases, but there is no need to do so. The old Trapdoor load will drop a buffalo, and the new loads do kick. Tim Sundles just made his reputation by stuffing as much powder as he can into a given round, whether it's .32 ACP or .50 Alaskan. There's no reason you need to do the same thing.

Now here's the catch. Slow, heavy non-expanding bullets are like bulldozers. They just plow on through things. I shot a buffalo with a black powder .45-70 using a cast Lyman Postell bullet, and we couldn't tell the entry from the exit. It went in, plowed straight through, and kept on flying. It would have killed a second buffalo if there was one behind the first. That's where your problem lies, for home defense: many obstacles won't stop a slow, heavy bullet. They might slow it down, but it tends to keep going.

If A 45-70 were all I had I would sure use it to defend my home.

If you find yourself going to great lengths to load specific light loads or certain bullet types to use the gun for home defense, you're not looking for an efficient HD package, you're trying to force a particular gun you like to fit a use it simply isn't the best tool for.

I have a .45-70 guide Gun, it's for large critters in the wilds.

I have a .30-30 Marlin carbine, it can go either indoors or oudoors, same with a .44 Mag carbine. Neither has hugely excessive recoil or overpenetration, both are perfectly viable for defensive uses in or about the house, and I can cycle both & return to target quicker than I can with the .45-70.

I also have a .357 Mag & a .45 Colt Marlin, either of which I'd choose in a heartbeat for HD uses over the .45-70.

I'm not knocking the levergun, just suggesting the .45-70 caliber is a poor choice, in this context.

Denis

My ex brother in law and I tried using a large round tightly packed hay bail as a backstop.

My 45-79 Browning throwing a 535gr cast bullet (fairly soft) over a casefull of black powder penetrated the bale and a 1/4" steel boiler plate. We got a thicker piece of boiler plate and set up at about a 45degree angle. That combo would stop the big rounds and even small high velocity stuff.

I thought about my Guide gun for home defense, but too many houses are nearby. Brick venere might stop or at least slow it down, but if it struck a window or door it might go through the entire house and anyone in the way. Just too much power and penetration. Now if I had to shoot someone fleeing in a car it would be great.

If you find yourself going to great lengths to load specific light loads or certain bullet types to use the gun for home defense, you're not looking for an efficient HD package, you're trying to force a particular gun you like to fit a use it simply isn't the best tool for.

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If that is someone's only long gun, only reliable long gun, or simply the one he shoots best, it beats second best by a mile. It is far from my first choice for HD duty, but I don't know the specific circumstances either. If I had a cabin in the woods, which could be frequented by big bruins, then the 1895GG might be my choice because it could do double duty as a big bear defense rifle and HD weapon.

Start learning sign language immediately if you plan on shootin that thing indoors.

If it's the only thing you have, use what you have.
If you have any ability to acquire or use something much better suited, you'd be well advised to go that route.

When I was 17 & couldn't afford anything else, I toted a percussion .36 Navy Colt repro in the wilds. Woefully inadequate for any sizable animal, not the best choice for defense against people, either (regardless of their use in the mid 1800s). That thing would not penetrate the door of an abandoned early 1950s Chebby we found in the Black Hills of South Dakota, while my buddy's .22 sailed right on through.

As soon as I was able when I got a little older, I got myself a little better armed.
Still love those Navies, but I don't try to force them to do a job better done by other tools.
Denis

I have 2 45/70 and have loaded several types of "defence" loads and my favorite was 2 250 gr wadcutters that I cast sized to .457 over 20 grs 2400. At 25 yds i get a spread of 1' and 2 very noticably round holes. If you look around you might be able to find a Lyman mold that cast a 145 gr "collar button". It was intended for gallery loads and I would think that 3 of these coming out of a 45/70 would tend to ruin anyone day with out over penetration.

i dont have a reloading kit yet

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You need to work on that, the .45-70Govt. is a magnificent cartridge for the handloader, but only a mediocre one for someone that buys factory boxes (just too darn expensive and limited in loading). A simple single stage press, dies, and scale is a worthwhile investment, if only for that one cartridge. You can do amazing things handloading for that 135+ yr old thumper.

You need to work on that, the .45-70Govt. is a magnificent cartridge for the handloader, but only a mediocre one for someone that buys factory boxes (just too darn expensive and limited in loading). A simple single stage press, dies, and scale is a worthwhile investment, if only for that one cartridge. You can do amazing things handloading for that 135+ yr old thumper.
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Plus a hundred on the above , I keep a guide gun around for bear defense and for shortrange brush work for big hogs but it's not an inside the house defense arm , not even remotely.

As to it's allegedly recoil factor , I'm not recoil sensitive but it doesn't recoil like a .300 mag , heck it doesn't even recoil like a lighter weight 7mm mag , much more like a 'shove' than the quick rap associated with magnum rifles , at for damn sure doesn't recoil anywhere near like my .375 rum. And insofar as it goes in a stress situation you're not noticing recoil anyway.

Marlins '94 in .357 mag or .44 mag or for that matter .45 lc would be a better choice that would allow cross capability ammunition wise with a given sidearm.

As to it's allegedly recoil factor , I'm not recoil sensitive but it doesn't recoil like a .300 mag , heck it doesn't even recoil like a lighter weight 7mm mag , much more like a 'shove' than the quick rap associated with magnum rifles , at for damn sure doesn't recoil anywhere near like my .375 rum.

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I don't know about that. I am not recoil sensitive either, but with the right loads (my 4000+ ft-lb load) it rivals the felt recoil of my .375H&H (though it is slightly heavier and has a very comfortable stock)...I like it!

OTOH I find my normal loads are easily more comfortable than my .30-06Spfd (similar weight). I find it to be more of a big shove than a sharp kick, akin to a shotgun (rather than a big Wby Mag.).

I don't know about that. I am not recoil sensitive either, but with the right loads (my 4000+ ft-lb load) it rivals the felt recoil of my .375H&H (though it is slightly heavier and has a very comfortable stock)...I like it!

OTOH I find my normal loads are easily more comfortable than my .30-06Spfd (similar weight). I find it to be more of a big shove than a sharp kick, akin to a shotgun (rather than a big Wby Mag.).
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That's pretty much what I get ( I stated it) more of a shove than a rap , here's a good Bear and big hog load you might want to try some time 52 grain of h4895 or 42 grains of 4198 under a Beartooth 535 grain fgnc , real effective. Or a load that I really like is the Meister hard cast 500 over 41 grains of h4198 , it turns 1600 plus out of an 18.5 , these are max loads out of a guide gun. Go to 335 and I see real nice performance with the various 405s , 2000 fps or close to it depending on the slug. Marshall Stanton worked up a bunch of loads using 405s that are real accurate and hardhitting.

And yeah they kick about like a 12 gauge with 3 inch magnums.

Whoa thats overkill! it would go thru 5 trailer parks before stopping. unless u have a house made of stone walls then it wont be a problem.

Bluenote, I really like a 300gr. HP over 65gr. of RL-7 (or 405gr. SP over 60gr. of the same). I have witnessed no signs of pressure, but I don't want to push my luck (any more than I already have). Both are loaded over max. charge and OAL but I am using a new production model 1885 with a long throat to accommodate those heavy loads. The first one is like a fragmentation artillery shell...flat (by .45-70 standards), fast (same), and explosive (by any standard). The second is like an anti-tank round...i'd use neither for home defense unless I absolutely needed to defend against rogue Buicks.