Am I missing something... Why are AR rifles so expensive?

Z-Michigan said:

AR-15 type rifles are extremely INexpensive if you consider the amount of machining and metallurgy that goes into making them. Because they are standardized and sold in huge numbers, mass production has driven costs way down. The uncommon variants and larger caliber offerings cost more because there is far less economy of scale.

I don't have the source handy but remember reading that when the AR-15 was first designed, only 6 (8?) countries on earth had the machining capability to do all the machining operations necessary to build it. It's not like an AKM that can genuinely be assembled in an Afghan hut over an open forge.

A better question would be, why are US-market AK clones so darn expensive considering that it only costs Izhmash about $80 to make one, and Izhmash makes about the best out there.

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well I have my doubts that it really only costs Izhmash 80$ to make one, but the reason we have to pay top dollar for those AKs is because we can't just buy them directly from Izhmash. We have to let them make some of the parts, ship them here, and let an American worker assemble it with the russian parts and some parts made in America.

Its all about whose salary you're paying.

[AR-15s are stamped out in record numbers for both the military and private personel so that would lead me to believe that they should get pretty cheap by now. Some mention that $1000 is cheap. Huh? Many mfg'rs are making very good bolt action, high-powered rifles for (street prices) $280 - $500. Marlin, Savage & Mossberg come to mind and there are more so why can't they make a $400 AR-15?

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At it's heart, an AR-15 is comparable to a bolt-action, yes---if you omit the bolt carrier, buffer, buffer springs, separate charging handle, bolt latch, adjustable stock, gas block, gas tube, disconnector, and replace the aircraft-grade-aluminum receiver with a machined steel tube.

For a given quality barrel and trigger, an AR requires a lot more machining than a simple bolt-action. FWIW, I have seen S&W M&P15's for $599 recently, and I don't see any quality bolt-actions at Walmart for under $400 or so.

Expensive is in the eye of the beholder.

SFTitan said:

That's got to be a .22 for that price

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nope, that has a 5.56 Nato-compatible upper.

We have to let them make some of the parts, ship them here, and let an American worker assemble it with the russian parts and some parts made in America.

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Izhmash ships the Saiga as a 100% functional complete rifle (in so-called sporter configuration). This is true for the SGL series just as for any other Saiga. What's done in the US is simply for 922(r) compliance and nothing else. You can do your own conversion for free labor and about $150 in parts if you so desire.

It's not all about who supplies the labor, it's all about who enacts a silly law that requires busy-work for compliance. And ironically created a cottage industry (larger, now) that has massively increased the interest level in military-look rifles.

I don't get it either. What am I missing? The original Stoner design -- as far as I know -- was to replace the m14 that fired select fire with something that fired fully auto but more accurate.

So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.

killchain said:

I bought my AR right at the height of the Obama scare. Two days after he became President-elect.

I paid TOO MUCH for it. It was $1081, and it was the display model at a Gander Mountain. But it was the last one, and everyone around me was panicking. Don't you love groupthink?

For the record, it has yet to fail on me, and I've put it though some licks.

But the moral of the story is: All of us, and our friends, caused this price hike.

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Oh, by the way, pics of the rifle in question.

It's a Bushmaster M4A3, 5.56mm

14.5in barrel with a 1.5in Izzy compensator, pinned on (Thanks NY)
1/9 twist, parkerized

EOTech 511, MATECH BUIS

Knight's Armament Rail system (RIS)

Surefire 660 Weaponlight

Spec-Ops "Mamba" three-point combat sling, and a "Wolf-Hook"

And a good old GI STANAG Magazine... probably an oKay. I haven't looked. But that particular magazine has been my go-to for six years, and hasn't failed me one time.

Yes. Except for the barrel and maker, this rifle is identical to the one issued to me in the Army.

Final cost: $1700ish.

So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.

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So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, capital equipment such as forges and multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental regulations, insurance, American skilled labor pay rates, quality control . . . how much should ARs cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?

As for "wannabe rambos", please see the links I included in my previous post. The DoD pays $800 for an M4 without sights, rails, or magazines and $1300 with those items. Where is this price jacking upping you're talking about? That's right in the ball park of what semi-auto rifles cost.

People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

rscalzo said:

Back when $200 was a week's pay.

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Ahh, I remember those heady days back in 2003/2004. Well, my paycheck was about $200 a week, I suppose gross was a little more.

A good AR isn't more than I'm willing to pay, just a bit more than I'm realistically able without a good bit of time saving for it.

A good AR isn't more than I'm willing to pay, just a bit more than I'm realistically able without a good bit of time saving for it.

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Fair enough. Been in that boat often myself. At least you're not complaining that you can't get a high-precision, expensive-to-make rifle for the same price as a base model Savage bolt gun. It's a conspiracy, I tells ya!

So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, the cost of capital equipment such as forges, multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental/insurance/labor costs, quality control . . . how much should they cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?
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People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

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Very well stated. They are among the best values when you consider what goes into making them. Whether you want one is a completely different question.

So, based on your knowledge of materials, tool and die making, the cost of capital equipment such as forges, multiple-axis CNC mills, anodizing, injection molding, investment casting, chrome-lining, environmental/insurance/labor costs, quality control . . . how much should they cost compared to, say, bolt action rifles of greatly simpler design and construction?

As for "wannabe rambos", please see the links I included in my previous post. The DoD pays $800 for an M4 without sights, rails, or magazines and $1300 with those items. Where is this price jacking upping you're talking about? That's right in the ball park of what semi-auto rifles cost.

People are confusing the fact that ARs cost more than they are willing to pay with the arbitrary assumption that these rifles somehow cost radically more than they should.

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Well how much are ARs now? The last time i saw one was during obama scare an AR was $1000+ . A colt was 1200 dollars. Maybe it has to do with the "assault weapons" ban here or it was obama scare.

But i know this much an AR's price is based on supply and demand and not a penny more. My Maverick 88 is made of plastic and it's cheaper than a comparable, reliable, pump shotgun made of wood and blued metal; as it should be.

For a quality weapon one can depend his/her life on, what's expensive?

Wonder how long people saved up two hundred years ago for a good weapon?

Kinda makes me think the view on weapons have changed from saving up for an important necessity/tool back then, and to now, where people just complain about how much their toys costs.

So why the heck does the semi auto version cost so much? I guess wanna be rambos are willing to pay that much hence jacking up the price.

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The difference between the semi-auto & full auto / burst versions is one more hole in the receiver, one more cross pin, and few more parts in the fire control group. Otherwise a Colt or LMT is built 95 to 100 % of the specs of the military version (save the civvie legal 16" bbl on M4geries).

As far as wannabe Rambos, how many WWI vets bought sporterized bolt action rifles, when lever guns were still the dominant US sporting rifle, because they'd used bolt actions and become comfortable with them. The same thing happened with WWII, Korea, and early Vietnam vets buying M1 Rifles, M1 Carbines, and semi-auto M14s while the bolt action rifle had become the dominant sporting rifle in the US: They too were more comfortable those rifles which they'd trained with & carried into combat. The M16/M4 family of rifles have now been in service for over forty years. That's several generations of US Servicemen who've trained on those rifles, and many of those men & women have carried the same rifles into combat. Does the fact that I have four years of military training with an M16A2 make me a wannabe Rambo because I own a semi-auto, carbine, version of the same rifle? Does it also make countless other Veterans wannabe Rambos, because they too own a commercial version of their M16/M4 service rifle; just as every previous generation of Veterans adopted commercial or surplus versions of their service rifles?

Well how much are ARs now? The last time i saw one was during obama scare an AR was $1000+ . A colt was 1200 dollars. Maybe it has to do with the "assault weapons" ban here or it was obama scare.

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That was answered in several previous posts. Mid tier models are readily available $600 to $700. That's what a Ruger Mini-14 sells for nowadays too.

But i know this much an AR's price is based on supply and demand and not a penny more.

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Yes, that's how all consumer goods are priced in a free market economy, not just AR-15s.

My Maverick 88 is made of plastic and it's cheaper than a comparable, reliable, pump shotgun made of wood and blued metal; as it should be.

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Are you saying an AR-15 should cost less than any wood & blued steel semi-auto rifle?

to yhe OP: How much do YOU think they should cost? How much can YOU build one for?

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That's a dubious comparison at best. What a manufacturer can do vs. what a hobbyist can do. Lowers don't have to be milled. That would be the cheapest method for a hobbyist to do it though. A lower, which handles next to no stress can be molded polymers pretty easily. 1 mold will run about 10k, but can be used to produce 1k bottoms if you have it made of the right materials. That's about 10 dollars a bottom not counting materials. Add another 10-20 on materials (the lower doesn't handle much stress except in the buffer assembly and even then it's minuscule). If you can find one anywhere near that, I'll buy it off you immediately. Barrels are more expensive. Uppers can be cast as well for the same reason that the lowers can be. A cast part can be made to very exacting standards, well exacting enough for rifle tolerances... we're not talking .00001 levels of accuracy now which is what many cnc mills can do. The only parts that are taking real stress are the barrels, the bolt face and body, and the locking lugs. Most everything else can be either cast or made out of pretty inexpensive materials. I bet the manufacturers could kick out a 350-400 dollar 1.5 moa AR in .223 an still make a profit. The scales of economy are on the manufacturers side.

On the other hand, purchasing 1 mold would be prohibitively expensive for the hobbyist, so the cheapest method of manufacture is out. Purchasing 1 of anything needed would cost more because the hobbyist isn't getting everything with a bulk discount.

^^Exactly.

The Ar-15 series rifles, carbines, etc are in big demand, that is one concern that fuels the price. For a time when the country was in a buying panic it was simple, a store has 3 ar's and 40 people waving cash, up the price,up the price again, now there are 55 people waving cash. Things have settled down some, but prices rarely drop. Depending on the make they are for sale from about $650 and up. Now is the time to buy. One little blip about gun control, coming from the top, and the next buying panic may leave selves bare.
$1,000 might seem like a bargin for an old carcano.

For those members that think $1000 price range is reasonable must make a decent living. In our present economy $1K for a gun/rifle is a lot of money to many. There are some that can afford it but many can't. So, I guess you purchase what you can afford, if not and AR, an AK for $350-$400 is the next best thing but for many this is still a lot of money for a weapon, so next best thing would be a 12 gauge pump shougun for $200 or less. Until you work your way down to a baseball bat! Better than nothing for home protection

1 mold will run about 10k

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I'd guess closer to 100K for the mold. there are cross pins, and pick-outs required, and you'd want a steel tool for longevity.

Are you saying an AR-15 should cost less than any wood & blued steel semi-auto rifle?

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Yes. I'm saying an AR at least lookslike a cheap plastic gun. All in all a Browning bar SAFARI cost 900 which is cheaper than many an AR; and at least lookslike it has some craftmanship and quality to it, fires semi-auto, same as a civilian m16 and doesn't appear to be a MATTEL toy. Again the aim of an m16 is that it fires fully auto. You want a civilian AK that does the same fine; it costs 400 dollars; a reasonable price for a gun in my view.

Also, I didn't know ARs could be had that cheap. At least in most Northeast states they are not. And are those 600 dollar ones up to military specs, or are you basically taking a chance on an unknown make? $600 is pretty big purchase for me anyway to take a chance on some fly by night manufacturer. Especially considering most have them for self defense in an emergency. A Ruger Mini sounds worth every bit worth it if what I'm saying is true.

For those members that think $1000 price range is reasonable must make a decent living. In our present economy $1K for a gun/rifle is a lot of money to many. There are some that can afford it but many can't. So, I guess you purchase what you can afford, if not and AR, an AK for $350-$400 is the next best thing but for many this is still a lot of money for a weapon, so next best thing would be a 12 gauge pump shougun for $200 or less. Until you work your way down to a baseball bat! Better than nothing for home protection

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I agree with you except for your first sentance. The point is not that we are madly in love with the price tag of a quality AR. The point is that there is a Grand Canyon of difference between what we want and what is. ARs cost a bit to make and wishing they were cheaper is a waste of energy.

There's come to be a perversion of the expectations of the modern consumer raised in a time of cheap credit, massive consumer debt, and--more than ever--a real lack of understanding of how things are actually made. Sorry, but we can't have everything we want, we can't have everything cheap, and we can't have everything now. Bitching about a conspiracy of greedy manufacturers rooking the poor consumer feels good but, again, is pointless. The guns I own are the result of saving and sacrificing luxuries in other areas of my life. Different people, different choices.

That's a dubious comparison at best. What a manufacturer can do vs. what a hobbyist can do. . .The scales of economy are on the manufacturers side.

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Well said. However, when you change the design for cheaper manufacturing, you are getting away from what an AR is and why they cost so much to make in the first place. What you wind up with is something more akin to an Armalite AR-180/AR-180B or Kel-Tec SU-16.

If you want a quality AR you are only going to pay so little for them. That's the way it is. Whether you think the price of admission is worth it is a subjective judgement that has little to do with of why ARs cost what they cost.

you can build one for under 400 dollars, just buy used parts n' pieces.

i did.


peabody

$600 is pretty big purchase for me anyway to take a chance on some fly by night manufacturer.

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Yep, S&W must be a fly by night manufacturer they only been around a hundred years or so.

A Ruger Mini sounds worth every bit worth it if what I'm saying is true.

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There we have it, I thought that post looked like trolling from the get go.

Speaking of which where's the OP?