Regulations for Purchase by Non-Resident Alien

The way I read it, his domicile will still be his home in Pa correct? That 90 days doesn't mean he cant travel for work. It just means that his main residence will be his home in Pa.

90 days is 90 days continuous permanent residence as can be evidenced with utilities, lease, CC statements etc, NOT I haven't physically left the state for 90 days.

Is it your domicile...yes...you're good to go. Is it your domicile and you spend 25 days out of 30 on the road.... you are STILL good to go

HOWEVER, no Green Card..... basically no firearms ownership.

There are some really weird and bizarre ATF rules around hunting permits etc, limited time use of a long arm for hunting etc.

Contact your local branch of the ATF and get WRITTEN guidance before your friend even contemplates a firearm purchase.

He can shoot at a range or other legal place of use with a range firearm or that of a friend, colleague, stranger etc so long as the owner is still in constructive possesion. So no, "Here's my pistol and rifle, off you go to the range and drop them back later".

everallm: ...HOWEVER, no Green Card..... basically no firearms ownership...

....He can shoot at a range or other legal place of use with a range firearm or that of a friend, colleague, stranger etc so long as the owner is still in constructive possesion. So no, "Here's my pistol and rifle, off you go to the range and drop them back later"....

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Uh.............wrong.

If you do not yet have your permanent residency (green card) but are here on a "nonimmigrant" visa, you can still purchase firearms.

Get a hunting license in your state of residence & proof of ninety days residency and he's good to go.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nonimmigrant-aliens.html#nonimmigrant-possession

Q: May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess firearms and ammunition while in the United States?
Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.

There are exceptions to this general prohibition. The exceptions are as follows:

1.nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid (unexpired) hunting license or permit lawfully issued by a State in the United States;
2.nonimmigrant aliens entering the United States to participate in a competitive target shooting event or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show sponsored by a national, State, or local firearms trade organization devoted to the collection, competitive use or other sporting use of firearms;
3.certain diplomats, if the firearms are for official duties;
4.officials of foreign governments, if the firearms are for official duties, or distinguished foreign visitors so designated by the U.S. State Department;
5.foreign law enforcement officers of friendly foreign governments entering the United States on official law enforcement business; and
6.persons who have received a waiver from the prohibition from the U.S. Attorney General.
Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien cannot purchase a firearm from a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or admission number from the Department of Homeland Security (formerly the Immigration and Naturalization Service) and (2) can provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a State within the United States for 90 consecutive days immediately prior to the firearms transaction.

[18 U.S.C. 922(g)(5)(b) and 922(y), 27 CFR 478.124, ATF Rul. 2004-1]

Q: Typically, who are “nonimmigrant aliens?” In large part, nonimmigrant aliens are persons traveling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a foreign residence abroad, and certain foreign workers. Permanent resident aliens are not nonimmigrant aliens. Permanent resident aliens often are referred to as people with “green cards.”

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The hunting license exemption is for people who come to the U.S. to hunt (like Americans go to Africa). I am not sure it would cover purchase of a gun not legal for hunting in the state which issued the hunting license.

But the person in question is not in that category; he is a resident alien, legally staying and working in the U.S. For firearms purchases, he is just like an American citizen except that he must present his green card plus ID for the NICS check. The proof of residency is just to make sure he is a resident alien and not a non-resident alien. As to being "chained to his house" the dealer is all wet. No, he is not restricted to his state of residence any more than anyone else who has to be a resident of a state to buy guns there. Residency for him means that same as it does for me, the place he is living.

However, depending on the laws in his own country, he might not be able to take his guns back with him when he leaves.

Jim

Dogtown

Sorry your wrong, and if he screws up at the LEAST his friend will get his visa pulled,

Read what I said, GET WRITTEN CONFIRMATION FROM THE ATF

No, Dogtown is quite right.
The "hunting" exception does not specify which guns can be purchased or how many. He can buy snub .38 revolvers or .22s if he wants.
Check the form 4473 here:
http://www.thundertek.net/documents/4473.pdf

Note, this form is outdated but the same rules apply.

Jim Keenan: The hunting license exemption is for people who come to the U.S. to hunt (like Americans go to Africa). I am not sure it would cover purchase of a gun not legal for hunting in the state which issued the hunting license...

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ATF makes no distinction as to whether the caliber or type of gun is legal for hunting, just as there is no requirement that the nonresident alien even intend to go hunting.

Jim Keenan:...But the person in question is not in that category; he is a resident alien, legally staying and working in the U.S.

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Not according to the OP. He states his friend is a non-resident alien. I'm not sure there is even a immigration status of "resident alien". I believe you are either "nonimmigrant alien" or "permanent resident". Nonimmigrant aliens can certainly reside in the US.......some for years on certain work visas or student visas as long as they renew.

everallm: Dogtown Sorry your wrong, and if he screws up at the LEAST his friend will get his visa pulled,
Read what I said, GET WRITTEN CONFIRMATION FROM THE ATF

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No sir, I'm correct. You just didn't bother to read my post where I PROVIDED that written confirmation from ATF. :banghead:

Still doubt me? Here, I'll give you another ATF source IN WRITING..... read the instructions on the Form 4473 where ATF spells out in English exactly what I posted previously: http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

Please read:
Page 1
Question 11.l.
Question 12

Page 4 (Notices, Instructions and Definitions)
Instructions for Question 11.l.

Page 5
Instructions for Question 20.c. & 20.d.

gmark340 said:

I'm interested in one specific aspect of the purchase of a handgun in the state of PA by a non-resident alien. My friend has been transferred from his native country in Europe to the States by his company and will be here for a number of years in this assignment. He has an interest in shooting and was told by an FFL, in the course of trying to understand what he had to do to qualify for the purchase, that he would have to physically be present in the state for at least 90 days before being allowed to purchase. Not that he had to be a resident, ie, be domiciled there, get his mail there, pay utilities there, etc., but that he had to be physically present in the state. If true, this is a problem for him in that, while he now lives here with his family, he is a senior person in the organization and travels quite often, both out of state and out of the country. It seems unlikely, given his current schedule, that he will be in PA for 90 straight days. I believe this is more a federal issue than state issue but would appreciate being pointed to any specific laws or references.

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It is confusing, because while your friend may not have his green card YET, he's not really a non-immigrant alien either, since he lives and works here.

The simplest solution is to wait until he gets his green card. What he should do NOW is to have a utility bill put in his name so he can save up bills for the 90 days before his purchase. Once he has the green card and the proof of residency (90 days worth) he can buy whatever he wants. He doesn't have to be physically present within the state every day of the 90 days, just have established a residence.

natman:...while your friend may not have his green card YET, he's not really a non-immigrant alien either, since he lives and works here.

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Wrong. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

His friend REALLY IS a nonimmigrant alien. He is working and living here in the USA temporarily. Nowhere in his post did the OP mention that his friend has any desire to immigrate, seek permanent residency or citizenship in the US.
It is perfectly legal for someone who is not a citizen or permanent resident of the United States to live, work, go to school or vacation while here.....as long as they have the proper visa.

natman:...The simplest solution is to wait until he gets his green card...

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Uh......no. The simplest solution is to purchase a hunting license prior to purchasing a gun. No waiting needed.
A "green card" is given to those who have been granted Permanent Resident status, something not sought or needed by the OP's friend.






.

dogtown tom said:

Wrong. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

His friend REALLY IS a nonimmigrant alien. He is working and living here in the USA temporarily. Nowhere in his post did the OP mention that his friend has any desire to immigrate, seek permanent residency or citizenship in the US.
It is perfectly legal for someone who is not a citizen or permanent resident of the United States to live, work, go to school or vacation while here.....as long as they have the proper visa.

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My friend has been transferred from his native country in Europe to the States by his company and will be here for a number of years in this assignment.

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Based on this, it seems reasonable to assume that the OP's friend will get permanent resident status.

From the Form 4473 instructions:

"Nonimmigrant Alien: An alien in the United States in a nonimmigrant classification. The definition includes, in large part, persons traveling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad, and certain foreign workers. The definition does NOT include permanent resident aliens."

Now the OP's friend might fall under the "certain foreign workers" classification, but he probably won't. It's certainly ambiguous enough to make your belligerent reply unjustified.

natman: Based on this, it seems reasonable to assume that the OP's friend will get permanent resident status....
...Now the OP's friend might fall under the "certain foreign workers" classification, but he probably won't. It's certainly ambiguous enough to make your belligerent reply unjustified.

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You don't just "get" Permanent Resident status, you have to apply for such. The OP's friend is here on a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa. I don't know how else to put it but but a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa DOES NOT LEAD to Permanent Resident status. That is why it is called a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa. It is called a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa because the alien is NOT applying for Permanent Residency.:banghead:

You wrote: "the OP's friend might fall under the "certain foreign workers" classification, but he probably won't". Whether you think it is "ambiguous" is immaterial. Obviously someone at USCIS (formerly INS) DISAGREES because they issued him a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa!:banghead: Believe it or not, but not all foreigners want to stay in the US after their work assignment ends.

Sorry if I have embarrassed you, but I feel my "belligerent reply" is justified. You have no clue as to what is legally required for a firearms transaction involving a nonimmigrant alien. Further, you don't have a clue regarding immigration, visa's, permanent residency or how a foreigner gets to work in the US.

Spend fifteen minutes here:http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis and you'll see why someone can get pretty frustrated at what you continue to post.

dogtown tom said:

You don't just "get" Permanent Resident status, you have to apply for such. The OP's friend is here on a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa. I don't know how else to put it but but a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa DOES NOT LEAD to Permanent Resident status. That is why it is called a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa. It is called a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa because the alien is NOT applying for Permanent Residency.:banghead:

You wrote: "the OP's friend might fall under the "certain foreign workers" classification, but he probably won't". Whether you think it is "ambiguous" is immaterial. Obviously someone at USCIS (formerly INS) DISAGREES because they issued him a NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN visa!:banghead: Believe it or not, but not all foreigners want to stay in the US after their work assignment ends.

Sorry if I have embarrassed you, but I feel my "belligerent reply" is justified. You have no clue as to what is legally required for a firearms transaction involving a nonimmigrant alien. Further, you don't have a clue regarding immigration, visa's, permanent residency or how a foreigner gets to work in the US.

Spend fifteen minutes here:http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis and you'll see why someone can get pretty frustrated at what you continue to post.

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I realize that the OP used the phrase "non-resident alien" to describe his friend's status. However, his description of the circumstances would seem to contradict that, so it's not clear what his status is now or will be in the future. Perhaps you would be good enough to explain how you know exactly what kind of visa his friend has, and what his status is, because I can't find that level of detail in the OP's post.

Instead of a) insulting me or b) fobbing me off to the IS site, how about providing some useful information. Let me provide an example:

Here's the ATF's definitions, which are what's relevant here.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/newsletters/ffl/ffl-newsletter-2008-11.pdf

"Step Two: Identify the alien class: Immigrant Alien, Non-Immigrant Alien (NIA), or Illegal Alien.
Any person who is not a U.S. citizen is defined in one of three alien classes.

Immigrant Alien
The immigrant alien, also known as a resident alien, is a permanent resident of the United States. This person has received permission to live and work in the United States permanently. A sale to this person is generally permitted (see Step Four).
TIP: To verify their immigrant status, ask to see their Permanent Resident Card, their legal proof of residency in the United States.

Non-Immigrant Alien (NIA)
The non-immigrant alien is a person not permanently residing in the United States. He has come to the United States for a specific purpose or business, tourism, or some other special interest, e.g., he may be a foreign student. His stay is for a defined period of time, after which he must return to his home country. Generally, he is prohibited from purchasing a firearm, unless he qualifies for an exception (see Step Three).
TIP: To verify his non-immigrant status, ask to see his travel visa, usually affixed inside his passport, and/or other supporting travel documents.

Illegal Alien
The illegal alien is a person who has entered the country illegally, and who has not received permission to enter or stay in the United States or his/her permission to stay in the country has expired. Such persons cannot purchase firearms or ammunition under any circumstances."

Clearly the OP's friend is not an illegal alien. Nor would it seem that he is a non-immigrant alien, since it doesn't sound like he's here temporarily or for a definite period of time (i.e. has a ticket home for a specific date).

So the only choice left and the one that seems to fit best is immigrant alien, AKA permanent resident.

Now I will repeat that the description of the circumstances does leave some room for interpretation, so it's possible that he is indeed a non-immigrant alien, although that seems unlikely since he is going to be living and working here "permanently" i.e. for an indefinite period of time.

Perhaps if you allowed for the possibility that your interpretation of events is not necessarily the only possible truth, you wouldn't find it so frustrating when others disagree with you.

Natman, you need to quit posting right now because you're posting nonsense.
The friend is a non resident alien. He is entitled to buy a gun under the exception mentioned.
This really isn't difficult.

natman:

I realize that the OP used the phrase "non-resident alien" to describe his friend's status. However, his description of the circumstances would seem to contradict that, so it's not clear what his status is now or will be in the future. Perhaps you would be good enough to explain how you know exactly what kind of visa his friend has, and what his status is, because I can't find that level of detail in the OP's post.

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Non immigrant means nonimmigrant, what part of that do you not get?
I have friends (Brits, Kenyans, Liberians, Scots, Brazilians, etc) who coached alongside me with nonimmigrant visas for YEARS. When their "temporary" work visa expired they would renew it. Eventually all applied for permanent residency and got it. But in a couple of cases they were required to leave the US and return under a different visa class.
I dated an Irish girl in Houston here on a non immigrant visa- she was working in the USA for three years before she was allowed to enter the INS lottery for immigrant visas. I personally stuffed a thousand envelopes with her applications inside. Nothing will make you hate US immigration policy more than doing that.
I read and understood the types of nonimmigrant visas that would allow the OP's friend to do exactly as described.
On the other hand, you can't seem to understand that someone can live and work in the US without being a permanent resident.

natman:...Instead of a) insulting me or b) fobbing me off to the IS site, how about providing some useful information. Let me provide an example:

Here's the ATF's definitions, which are what's relevant here....

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No kidding. I'm an FFL. I don't claim to know everything about Federal law but I posted the requirements for a nonimmigrant alien's purchase of a firearm
three days ago. Copying that info from ATF tells me absolutely nothing I didn't already know. If I don't know what is required I could be fined or imprisoned if I transfer a firearm illegally. What penalty do you face for giving bad advice on an internet forum?

I "fobbed you off" to the USCIS website because you have little to no knowledge of immigration visa types.

natman:...Nor would it seem that he is a non-immigrant alien, since it doesn't sound like he's here temporarily or for a definite period of time (i.e. has a ticket home for a specific date).

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Clearly you just don't get it. And obviously you don't care to try and get it or you would have spent a couple of minutes on the USCIS website. That sir, is where you'll discover that those TEMPORARY nonimmigrant visas may allow the NONIMMIGRANT ALIEN to stay and work for three years, renew another three and possibly longer depending on the classification!

Here, I'll make it easy. Click this link and then choose one of the visa classes on the left menu. Then scroll down until you can see length of stay. http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/us...nnel=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

natman:...Perhaps if you allowed for the possibility that your interpretation of events is not necessarily the only possible truth, you wouldn't find it so frustrating when others disagree with you.

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Please. If the Op's friend took your advice to "wait until he gets his green card" he would NEVER be able to buy or possess a firearm while he is living and working here.
You can try and reinvent the OP's friend as anything you want but the discussion is about how a nonimmigrant alien legally acquires a firearm.

I've posted a quote from the ATF to support my position. Rather than deal with it you just ignore it and continue to insult me.

Given the ATF material it does not seem that someone can live and work here on a tourist visa. Perhaps the reality differs from ATF's material, it certainly wouldn't be the first time. If you feel that there is information on the IS website that supports your position, fine. I am willing to stand corrected if you can make a convincing case BASED ON ACTUAL CITATIONS, not just your opinions, rudeness and insults. But you are going to have to make it first. I'm not going to do the research for you.

You're right. SOmeone cannot live here and work here on a tourist visa.
Whoopy.
That wasn't the question. The question concerned someone's ability to buy a firearm. And the answer Dogtown gave is the correct one. Why you doubt this is beyond me. I am also an FFL. I also deal with these regs. Dogtown is spot on. You are way off. That's just the ugly truth.

natman I've posted a quote from the ATF to support my position. Rather than deal with it you just ignore it and continue to insult me.

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As I said in my previous post your ATF quote is OLD NEWS. I've not insulted you. If I did you would know it.

natmanGiven the ATF material it does not seem that someone can live and work here on a tourist visa.

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Again, you cannot seem to comprehend that TEMPORARY WORKERS, those working and living in the US are here on NONIMMIGRANT VISAS. The ATF quote YOU POSTED says:

Non-Immigrant Alien (NIA)
The non-immigrant alien is a person not permanently residing in the United States. He has come to the United States for a specific purpose or business, tourism, or some other special interest, e.g., he may be a foreign student. His stay is for a defined period of time, after which he must return to his home country. Generally, he is prohibited from purchasing a firearm, unless he qualifies for an exception (see Step Three).
TIP: To verify his non-immigrant status, ask to see his travel visa, usually affixed inside his passport, and/or other supporting travel documents.

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See those parts in bold above? The USCIS website that I've steered you to twice has IN DETAIL what types of temporary workers get what types of nonimigrant visas. You made a decision that only tourists are nonimmigrants and it is clear from YOUR OWN QUOTE they are not.

The "defined period of time" is for the length of time specified on the visa. If you had bothered to read my previous post or actually spent three minutes on the USCIS website you would have read that some temporary workers in the US on a NONIMMIGRANT VISA can stay for SIX YEARS (3yrs + renewal), more with permission.

The "exception" mentioned above? I covered that in my first post: buy a hunting license.

natman: Perhaps the reality differs from ATF's material, it certainly wouldn't be the first time.

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Can't blame ATF on this one. The passage you quoted from ATF's website is correct. It is your comprehension and understanding that is at fault.

natmanIf you feel that there is information on the IS website that supports your position, fine. I am willing to stand corrected if you can make a convincing case BASED ON ACTUAL CITATIONS, not just your opinions, rudeness and insults. But you are going to have to make it first. I'm not going to do the research for you.

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I've done the research. I posted the research. I linked you to the exact page at USCIS. If you cannot understand that information I'm sorry.

Bubba613 said:

You're right. SOmeone cannot live here and work here on a tourist visa.
Whoopy.
That wasn't the question. The question concerned someone's ability to buy a firearm. And the answer Dogtown gave is the correct one. Why you doubt this is beyond me. I am also an FFL. I also deal with these regs. Dogtown is spot on. You are way off. That's just the ugly truth.

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Look, if the person in question is indeed a non-immigrant alien, then the only practical way he can buy a firearm is via the hunting license route. I've never questioned that.

The area that is not crystal clear to me is whether the person can have the type of job described while a non-immigrant alien. While I've acknowledged that it's possible I assumed he couldn't and maybe that was a stretch.

I am disappointed in the low ratio of fact and rational argument to insult and personal attack in this thread. The high road is about solving the problem, not calling people wrong.

I don't know why that is not crystal clear to you. His company transferred him for a specific period. After that he is to go home. That makes him a non-immigrant alien. Non-immigrant because he is not here to establish residency and become an American citizen. Alien because he is a citizen of another country.
Nothing here seems confusing or complicated.

Nor is the answer to the original query about his buying the gun. The answer is that he would need a hunting license, regardless of whether he ever intends to hunt or not.

I am sorry you feel insulted but Dogtown's answer was clear, succinct, and correct. It did not need additional commentary.