HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor

Just watch the cop shows on TV, they hardly ever hit anyone. It really is hard to believe that with all the training that they have that they will empty their gun and hit nothing. I've seen deer hunters that could hit small targets all day long, but miss every deer they shoot, even ones standing still.

yeah, and your plane could crash too, so why not avoid flying altogether while your at it....

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And again, people still do in fact die in plane crashes. All the odds against it mean exactly nothing once it happens.

if the shortcuts in grammar i, and others use on these forums offends your sensibility, feel free not to frequent them

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No thanks. I'll keep frequenting the forums I want. I'll just correctly assume the people who type like that are illiterate, and probably shouldn't be taken seriously.

It is all about the body's response to stress. You start to lose fine motor skills, then gross motor skills, breathing becomes irregular, vision and sight can also be effected. Shooting at targets, and even shooting in competitive events, will not simulate that portion of a real shooting.

We can train all day long but when the real thing happens we will not react the exact same way. Even soldiers that have spent months or years training freeze up in battle. Many of the ones that do shoot end up missing.

You can plan all you want but in the end, the fight will be what it wants to be.

valorius said:

Why not just keep one of both on hand?

That's what i do.

I can pretty much handle anything from an armored home invasion squad to a herd of zombies, to a runaway circus elephant, to a pack of velociraptor's with the tools i have readily on hand.

5.56mm Mk262 Mod1 77gr OTM in my sweetened up Bushmaster, and 12 pellet 00B 2 3/4" full power magnum rounds in the Beretta 12 gauge. 6 rounds of solid copper 3" Barnes .50 sabot slugs also ride in the stock's shell carrier.

Reality strongly suggests that the odds of running into a pack of body armor equipped home invaders is somewhat less than running into the pack of velociraptors, but whatever the problem, i should have it covered...if you look closely you can see my body armor hanging on the wall. Class IIIA/IV wrap around with a Class II/IV groin flap.

(The swords are only in the pic for a "beauty shot," lol)

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Where is the elephant/gravoid gun?

Sounds like you're planning for a visit from SWAT.

As has been touched on by others, the gun isn't the answer. If you are really at risk for attack by multiple people with body armor you need to do one or more of several things.

1) Move or whatever to change your risk profile!

2) Get professional guards! They will bring a team which will counter the other team to some extent. Also they should have the expertise to set up a "defense in depth"

3) Set up true safe room more like the original ones. Which means harden the safe room so it is strong enough to stand off the expected level of attack for long enough for help to get there. And have insurance to cover replacement of "stuff".

4) Study Viking history, that will give you an idea of what an all out attack to eliminate someone is like when bad guy doesn't care about collateral damage.

Feet, legs and head - in that order - when they wear body armor. Any firearm will take them down that way. My idea is for a shoulder mounted firearm - rifle or shotgun - to be backed up by a medium or big bore pistol which backed up by a decent sheath knife or tomahawk. I layer my defenses.

To be honest the idea of a home invasion "team" is not that far fetched here in San Diego. The gangs here are well organized and well armed. Will they also be wearing body armor? Why not? They want to survive as much as anybody. Will my old shotgun stop them? I don't know. Hopefully any sign of armed resistance will send them on to the next target. The real question is will I reach my weapon in time?

glamdrig said:

As has been touched on by others, the gun isn't the answer. If you are really at risk for attack by multiple people with body armor you need to do one or more of several things.

1) Move or whatever to change your risk profile!

2) Get professional guards! They will bring a team which will counter the other team to some extent. Also they should have the expertise to set up a "defense in depth"

3) Set up true safe room more like the original ones. Which means harden the safe room so it is strong enough to stand off the expected level of attack for long enough for help to get there. And have insurance to cover replacement of "stuff".

4) Study Viking history, that will give you an idea of what an all out attack to eliminate someone is like when bad guy doesn't care about collateral damage.

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That is a ridiculous response. For one, the economy is in the crapper, so I would recommend holding down whatever job you are lucky enough to have. It would seem that body armor of some kind if becoming more prolific, as it is often heard through reasonably credible sources.

example

http://www.herald-dispatch.com/news/briefs/x1431852389/4-linked-to-recent-robbery-spree
There deputies recovered numerous items, including purses, money, identification, debit/credit cards, checks, electronics, radios, tools and body armor.

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Something else to keep in mind is that gangs in the military and "bad guys" with military back grounds are becoming MORE commonplace, not less. http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/09/2456950/gangs-in-the-military-pose-problem.html

Here in Houston, the bad guys have been waiting at banks, grocery stores, and drug store parking lots for a likely victim to come up, then either accost them on the spot or following them home. I think this type of the thing has been happening all over more frequently, but yesterday in Ace Hardware, there were two random people, both of whom knew someone that had been a recent victim of this kind of violent crime.

If you don't have something relevant to add to the discussion, then why reply at all?? I come across these all the time. Someone asks a question and someone else flippantly throws out "get a dog" or "move", etc...

I think that without a doubt, you want a rifle if you expect an armored assailant.

But does that mean that a rifle should be your primary HD? I guess that's the question. Primary, or backup?

http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09...e-problem.html

Some of the top security guys in the Mexican Mafia were once Mexican Military.

With the amount of money and contacts some of the Mafia people have they can buy anything they want. Submarines and planes they like. Tanks so far haven't heard of any.

Last drug bust I saw pictures of in Mexico there was some swat type and military body armor the bad guys had. If they have it in Mexico I would be willing to bet their members residing in the states also have access to it. The saving grace is the Mafia does drug distribution and are not normally into smash and dash type home invasions. Not true for all Mafias; Zetas remind me of of some ancient warlord who thinks he can do anything to anyone.

Our local home grown punks and gang bangers are the bottom rung of the distribution network.

A criminal likes a high value easy hit; a target chosen by some young punks doing their initiation seem to cause "for no reason" crimes and really suck for us pedestrians but usually no body armor......Luckily they usually are after rival gang bangers.

Feet, Arms, Head, and don't miss. Seems like I remember a couple of Swat/ATF guys on the roof of the Branch Davidian home who lost their lives when wearing body armor. It is certainly not fool proof.

HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor
Will the 00 buck people switch their choices to .223/5.56 if there have been a rash of home invasions involving multiple armed assailants who might be wearing body armor?

I understand that the shotgun, rifle, and handgun all have their places, but if the bad guys are starting to work in teams I am seriously reconsidering my choice of an 870 and 00 RR buck.

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Bad guys do work in teams. When there is one you assume there is two. Chances of them wearing body armor coming in to invade your house means your either a high value asset or you seriously upset the wrong group of mall ninjas.

Just because he is a "bad guy" he should not mind getting shot and take no action to mitigate the consequences of his bad actions????

That is illogical.

mustang_steve said:

At HD distances, you ought to be able to get them right in the face...face armor is unlikely.

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I agree. If time and situation permits, I'm Mozambique dropping all the way (tap tap splat)

Rifleman 173 said:

Feet, legs and head - in that order - when they wear body armor. Any firearm will take them down that way.

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I disagree. Although I don't doubt that shooting someone in the feet, legs then head would drop them, I don't think it's very practical. When it comes to human sized targets, I'm going for body shots; if they don't drop after 2, I'm stitching my way up north. That'll learn em'

Run scenarios in your head. Imagine all different kinds of violent encounter scenarios from home invasions, armed robberies at different places, vehicle scenarios, etc. all in your head. React to them in your head. Practice reloading and trigger pull drills at home with snap caps and blinds down, get behind concealment from all different positions and angles from all around your home, memorize the choke points and fatal funnels, practice clearing rooms, cutting the pie, quick peeking...Heck, get friends and family members to run them with you, power in numbers. Just keep practicing the basics and what you know, find your mistakes and correct them, and do it often; because in a real life SHTF scenario, it's the basic stuff that you know, that works.

I've been a shotgun for HD guy all my life. Living in Phoenix I've been thinking more and more of moving to an AR platform for HD. Combination of things really. I have not shot my shot gun in a long time and I do shoot the AR a lot more. The rising use of armor in home invasions and those yahoos have broke into the wrong place more than once. There is also the rising school of thought that an AR is just a better handling weapon for HD.

mbt2001 said:

That is a ridiculous response. For one, the economy is in the crapper, so I would recommend holding down whatever job you are lucky enough to have. It would seem that body armor of some kind if becoming more prolific, as it is often heard through reasonably credible sources.

example



Something else to keep in mind is that gangs in the military and "bad guys" with military back grounds are becoming MORE commonplace, not less. http://www.star-telegram.com/2010/09/09/2456950/gangs-in-the-military-pose-problem.html

Here in Houston, the bad guys have been waiting at banks, grocery stores, and drug store parking lots for a likely victim to come up, then either accost them on the spot or following them home. I think this type of the thing has been happening all over more frequently, but yesterday in Ace Hardware, there were two random people, both of whom knew someone that had been a recent victim of this kind of violent crime.

If you don't have something relevant to add to the discussion, then why reply at all?? I come across these all the time. Someone asks a question and someone else flippantly throws out "get a dog" or "move", etc...

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So how do you defend against 4 guys with rifles and body armor? AFAIK the only way for home defender to win against 4 vs 1 is to control a choke point.

BUT if your facing people with rifles and body armor, I'm assuming they can flank me easily. They can break regular walls easy if they are doing that committed of an attack.

That is why I said harden the safe room, though that would still fail to the Viking type attack. Or the type of attack SM talks about.

If a group of people like that want to kill you and they have a basic skill level they will do it. That is why I suggest if things are that bad you should leave. Dead is permanent there is no do over.

45R said:

Bad guys do work in teams. When there is one you assume there is two. Chances of them wearing body armor coming in to invade your house means your either a high value asset or you seriously upset the wrong group of mall ninjas.

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Well considering you can buy a level I vest from Sports Man's guide for $99 it isn't hard to imagine. Especially when you can get the ceramic or steel plates to make it level III easily these days.

I'm not terribly worried about it because it isn't something that has happen in my area yet. Also, when they see my house they will probably pass for something that looks more rewarding.

If you are that worried about home invasion though, start outside. Get motion detector lights and a security light from the electric company. Reinforce your door frame and use two dead bolts. (One above and one below the lock spreads the impact out more) Then put a "security bar" under the handle. They also make security film for windows. Put some on the inside and outside.

If you use all of those tools, plus make sure all doors and windows are locked, most burgallers and invaders will leave. They don't want to be seen and they don't want to spend more than three minutes getting in.

If that doesn't work I say head shots are your best chance. That or pray that a 12ga or 20ga slug will get the job done. If you miss though, your neighbors might be real pissed. I would stay away from buck shot in a house. There is too much of a chance for collateral damage.

Glamdrig said:

So how do you defend against 4 guys with rifles and body armor? AFAIK the only way for home defender to win against 4 vs 1 is to control a choke point.

BUT if your facing people with rifles and body armor, I'm assuming they can flank me easily. They can break regular walls easy if they are doing that committed of an attack.

That is why I said harden the safe room, though that would still fail to the Viking type attack. Or the type of attack SM talks about.

If a group of people like that want to kill you and they have a basic skill level they will do it. That is why I suggest if things are that bad you should leave. Dead is permanent there is no do over.

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It depends on who is gunning for you. IN the vast majority of circumstances, it is hoods / kick burglars and once the lead starts flying they will be in retreat mode. Yes, control a choke point. Yes, build fire lanes in the house. Yes, have a long gun somewhat handy.

Don't underestimate the assailants, but frankly, once there buddies drop, they will be in gone. The real scare isn't body armor, but thermo-scopes. They are for sale. Luckily they cost a lot, but they would give some perps a recon leg up.

FN PS90 you would have fifty rounds.

Usually AFAIK your not going to see teams with expensive gear unless your dealing with professional robbers who tend to hit high value targets or higher level drug dealers. The drug dealers are usually fighting with the competition.

So, assuming your law abiding and not real wealthy, your not to likely to see that type of attention unless you have a high profile for some reason (politics, religion, whatever).

So like I said, change your risk profile! Use your superior skills to avoid the fight!!

I use a 9mm pistol for HD and feel rather comfortable with that. I practice headshots/'mozambique' drills frequently, even though I don't really worry about body armour... Multiple intruders? Very unlikely for me, but even in that situation I'd use my pistol since it's much more maneuverable than even my 14.5" AR and I can use it at very close (contact) range which in my opinion is not that unlikely in the close confines of my home.

I think the original question has been adequately answered at this point...

lpl